Aibu or is school, regarding discipline?

[Imustbemad00]

Would like any information anyone can give me regarding secondary schools and discipline procedures.
My child’s secondary school is strict. I knew it was strict, partly why I chose it. However, in reality, it is causing so many problems. My child has changed so much since starting there, unhappy, suffering with mental health and has developed a bad attitude problem and I will admit is being quite naughty at school and at home. Im worried.

This brings me on to the school rules and discipline. The school penalises children for looking out of a window, or anything viewed as a drop in concentration or messing around. Even dropping a pen. They have to move through the corridors in silence and not make eye contact with anyone and can’t even mess about at break time. They have to sit and chat and be sensible. It’s like they can not have personalities.

The sanctions for bad behaviour are extreme. My child has spent a lot of time in isolation, which means out of lessons. Not learning. Not talking to another person all day. Not great for a child already struggling with mental health.

The school also give them double detentions, meaning my child is was in school for 9 hours and 45mins today without talking to another child or being in any lessons, arriving home at 6.30pm.

I try to work with them as I know my child’s behaviour is the cause of punishments, but honestly feel they are way over the top and their approach is making things worse. They say that those are their policies and that is that.

I’m thinking of moving schools but worry my child’s behaviour could worsen if boundriers were relaxed. But equally they could flourish if not so unhappy and stressed.

So Aibu to think the schools policies are over the top? Is it normal?

OP, how about you stop complaining about the school and move your son? You chose this school. The policies are not to your liking, but they seem to suit many of the parents who have also chosen to send their children there.

You have, also, intimated that your child is disruptive and rude. You need to send him somewhere where you can stand in support of his teachers' attempts to deal with that behaviour, or he is going to be the one who suffers for it.

Well slant sounds horrendous for many kids on the autistic spectrum. Especially those who can either look OR listen, but not do both.

Would be a nightmare for Ds3. He can’t follow long strings of spoken language. He has been tested, but there doesn’t seem to be a test that narrows his particular issue - his vocabulary when tested was on the 97th centile. One test ‘draw the monster’ began to show the issue (the tester describes the monster they are drawing - Ds3 had to draw the same without seeing the testers- he made bizarre errors - he was in year 6). At primary his teacher used to check with him afterwards that he understood what he was meant to be doing & would provide written instructions. (He’s fine with written). His school uses a lot of PBL, and doesn’t use much lecture style work at all - so suits him down to the ground. He can have frequent 1:1,conversations with staff to clarify issues and concerns.

Lecture style talking at him wouldn’t increase his learning. He’s make a good show of tracking the teacher and looking whilst not a word was going on. Doesn’t sound like the sort of place where he would be confident enough to ask questions either.

Op, you may wish to ask MNHQ to delete the verbatim quote from the school website about children moving in the corridors. A quick google brings up the school.

School sounds awful, where's the joy or the having fun with your friends which should be part of school experience, and I don't mean in class but at breaks etc.

Class sounds v rigid too, is there much discussion bt students and teachers or is it v much the 'filling empty vessels' someone up thread mentioned?

I'd move him tbh and I'd be hugely unimpressed by the teachers comments to him about being a loser etc if he moved schools. Completely wrong of teacher.

School sounds awful and definitely destined to squash any future artist or scientist. So sad for your child being terrorized by the school.
Here are a few school reports of famous people:
‘Is a constant trouble to everybody and is always in some scrape or other. He cannot be trusted to behave himself anywhere’ Winston Churchil's school report
‘Certainly on the road to failure… hopeless… rather a clown in class… wasting other pupils’ time’ John Lennon's school report
‘He will never amount to anything’ Albert Einstein's school report
“David is a quiet student who needs to stop playing with his motorcycles and learn that music will not make him a livable wage.” David Bowie's school report
Shows great originality, which must be curbed at all costs. Peter Ustinov's school report

Remember school isn't just about preparing for exams, it's about laying the foundations to become a functioning adult with the ability to make reasoned decisions. This level of discipline will not help!

Wow. Do they have a row of cells for isolation? How do they cope if several kids are sent for isolation at the same time? I think it sounds awful, I have no idea how that is allowed. Sorry, just waded in here , I don't have sons and my girls haven't been to a school remotely like this so I don't think I'm in a position to advise, I'm just rather amazed. It wouldn't be for me.

am I the only one wondering how many isolation rooms do they have?

Even assuming a small school you are looking at 350 students. If you are put in isolation for the smallest of infringements they cant just have one or two rooms?!

To clarify I’m in no way doubting the OP (the school sounds a poor fit for her son.)
I’m more curious as as to how many children are being out in isolation on a daily basis as we barely had room to swing a cat when I was at school

Sounds like they took the Demon Headmaster book as a how to manual. Don't let the head get on telly!!

I think there's a misunderstanding of isolation here.
It's not solitary confinement and sensory deprivation!
It's usually little study booths where students are expected to get on with work. Fairly standard practice.

Iused2BanOptimist
We have an isolation room (like many schools). It's a series of individual desks with boards between so the member of staff can see all studnets but they don't communucate with each other (after all the whole point is they are out of lesson working independently and not being disruptive, not chilling with their mates).

It's just like a silent study classroom. There's work so students don't get behind but they have their breaks/lunch as a group and are out of circulation at break and lunch.

It works as part of a consistent behaviour strategy. Most students in every school I've worked in will never end up in isolation.

Usually, schools who bring in new very strict rules and sanction each minor infringement do so because over time schools in that area have failed to offer the discipline required to actually teach. Having worked somewhere where schools were opened/closed/new head/new academy chain etc for over 10 years, it is hard to break the cycle of 'my parents and aunty and family friend went here and say it's shit. My dad said if someone says anything to me, smack them because that's how the world works'.

As I say, I'd probably not want to work somewhere with the approach that some of the schools mentioned here have, but they are offering a model of education with decent intentions and reasonable results. Thr fact it doesn't align with my philosophy doesn't make them poor schools.

Like this

The thing with those school reports sofia is that it worked out fine for those exceptional individuals but what about the other 29 kids in John lennon's class who weren't incredibly talented so needed to learn at school and pass exams to get good jobs but the teacher was always dealing with the class clown?
I agree that schools should be careful not to stifle creativity but some children never get the opportunity to learn if other children are constantly disruptive. That is the point of isolation in most schools - so the rest of the class can get on.

trojanpony

'Isolation' doesn't mean they are in solitary. In our school it is a room with water, fans, lots of staff, about twenty desks, no 'booths', and they stay there until they behave.

SofiaAmes

And then there is Bobby Brown, who went to school with John Lennon, managed zero learning because Lennon disrupted all his classes and wasted his time, and ended up on the dole without a legion of adoring fans and Yoko.

Wasting the time of others is wrong, irrespective of how original you think you are.

CuckooCuckooClock
I agree.
Plus sharing the reports like that is a bit like sharing 'inspirational' stories about how Richard Branson failed at school so don't worry everyone you too can be a billionaire with no qualifications.

The reason the same few examples are always given is because they are the exception, not the norm. Most people need a reasonable education base behind them to do what they want to do.

Ditto for behaviour. Here's some successful people who were told to settle down, look how great they are. That's fine, but most students who are repeatedly disruptive tend to end up making poorer choices, tend to find themselves without the best qualifications they could get, some get excluded, some end up in PRUs. Most will not become astronauts and pop singers.

It's not that controversial surely to say that when students are in school, they should behave themselves, learn, and not prevent others from learning.

MaisyPops

This drives me mad, actually: "Well, Alan Sugar has no qualifications and he's a peer!"

Yes, he is also: energetic, driven, committed, pragmatic, fiercely intelligent and practically minded.

What are the odds that little Fabian, with his wandering concentration span and memory like a block of Swiss cheese, happens to have all of those qualities?

i havent read the whole thread
You can see this school isnt the right fit for your son, so you know what to do, the school isnt going to change because you dont like some aspects of how they do things, so your only options is to change schools, you are his only advocate, you are meant to safeguard him, at the moment you have expressed concern for his mental health and how you feel it is worsening... so safeguard him... move him to somewhere that is a better fit and somewhere that is mental health is going to improved, you may find he becomes a lot happier and less attitude from him if he feels that you are in his corner fighting for him ( not saying you are not but he might feel like you are not)

Pengggwn
With you entirely. It's the bastardisation of growth mindset to mean 'you can be whatever you want to be regardless of your actions and attitude and education'.

Like I say, I'm no fan of some of the policies mentioned on this thread, but I think I'd prefer that over lax discipline and tolerating disruption because of some misplaced conflation between bad behaviour and creativity.
(Plus, how do you be meaningfully creative with things if you lack the knowledge to play with? I doubt James Dyson came up with his inventions because one day having limited understanding just happened to have a creatige moment)

What are the odds that little Fabian, with his wandering concentration span and memory like a block of Swiss cheese, happens to have all of those qualities?

Sounds like my Dyslexic son who's teachers have no idea how to engage him in lessons - so just leave him to suffer

I hope he proves you wrong in his success

greentulips
I think you may have misunderstood. They weren't saying that children like that should be left.
It was with regards to claims/stories of 'here is a famous person who was disruptive in class' as evidence that discipline in schools must stifle creativity. Same for stories of 'here's someone rich who has no GCSEs'.

The reality is that most children (your DC included), need a supportive learning environment where all children can learn. Going down the route of 'schools stifle creativity' and these rare examples prove it ignores the fact that they are the exception. The reality is more time should be spent working with children to help them achieve rather than focus on a tiny % of highly successful people as if it's the norm.

I don't think anyone's in favour of allowing unlimited disruption in class but the over the top discipline strategies which basically penalise any student who isn't capable of focusing for long periods of time or students who need a creative outlet is unacceptable.

Sounds like the school is using fairly standard discipline methods with detentions and internal exclusion (isolation rooms). The other stuff about moving in silence between lessons is less common but apparently is useful in some schools because corridor behaviour can get rowdy. If you don't like the policies and they are not a good fit for your child then you should change school, however you will find that most schools have similar policies. Most students will never see what the isolation room looks like either, because as you say it is reserved usually for the most extreme cases. However repeated incidents of poor behaviour that are not being addressed by detentions will have the same result. Unfortunately internal exclusion is the last resort before sending the child home or to a TAC (Turn Around Centre). Ultimately your school may place your child on a managed move to another school so either way it looks like they may be moving schools if the behaviour continues. I hope you find a good fit for your child elsewhere and quite possibly another student will flourish in his /her place at your existing school. Some students LOVE strong boundaries and the feeling of safety which creates a harmonious learning experience, where each child can focus and really achieve their full potential without having to cope with constant low level disruption. But not all.

GreenTulips

I don't leave him to suffer. I tell him to concentrate and stop pissing about, advice which, I am confident, will be instrumental in any success 'he' (Fabian isn't real) eventually experiences.

pitter
As I've said repeatedly, I'm not a fan of everything in these type of approaches.

I'm just also cautious of taking tiny examples and using them as some sort of proof against a particular way of teaching.