Aibu or is school, regarding discipline?

[Imustbemad00]

Would like any information anyone can give me regarding secondary schools and discipline procedures.
My child’s secondary school is strict. I knew it was strict, partly why I chose it. However, in reality, it is causing so many problems. My child has changed so much since starting there, unhappy, suffering with mental health and has developed a bad attitude problem and I will admit is being quite naughty at school and at home. Im worried.

This brings me on to the school rules and discipline. The school penalises children for looking out of a window, or anything viewed as a drop in concentration or messing around. Even dropping a pen. They have to move through the corridors in silence and not make eye contact with anyone and can’t even mess about at break time. They have to sit and chat and be sensible. It’s like they can not have personalities.

The sanctions for bad behaviour are extreme. My child has spent a lot of time in isolation, which means out of lessons. Not learning. Not talking to another person all day. Not great for a child already struggling with mental health.

The school also give them double detentions, meaning my child is was in school for 9 hours and 45mins today without talking to another child or being in any lessons, arriving home at 6.30pm.

I try to work with them as I know my child’s behaviour is the cause of punishments, but honestly feel they are way over the top and their approach is making things worse. They say that those are their policies and that is that.

I’m thinking of moving schools but worry my child’s behaviour could worsen if boundriers were relaxed. But equally they could flourish if not so unhappy and stressed.

So Aibu to think the schools policies are over the top? Is it normal?

MaisyPops

Precisely. How many James Dysons are there? How many Alan Sugars?

Hard work and a bit of grit, please!

Thanks Cuckoo and Maisy. OP mentioned a white room and I was beginning to visualise a sensory deprivation cell! Still whilst that sort of thing may have its place I think a lot of this sort of behaviour has to do with pent up energy. I don't have boys but I do have nephews and my sisters say you have to run them like dogs! I would think a trip to the gym and a few circuits of a playing field before sitting down to read quietly for a short spell would be more effective. I seem to remember reading of a school that introduced running around the playing field a few times followed by a healthy snack at the start of the day with very positive results. I remember thinking what a nightmare a distant in law's son was, playing Monopoly he rocked backwards and forwards the whole time, never sat down for a moment. He's about to qualify as a doctor now. Clever boy. Lots of energy. Can't imagine he would have thrived in that sort of set up.

Iused2BanOptimist
Happy to help.

I'll be honest, I don't think it's largely pent up energy that gets people into isolation.

Students who tend to end up in isolation are ones who are verbally absuive to staff and peers, who refuse to follow basic instructions, who are openly defiant or hinder other pupils' ability to learn.

(Note - I'm not talking about ODD or anything because often on anything behaviour someone will argue any defiance is an additional need)

I know for some this sounds awful, but ultimately a tiny % of students end up taking most time from teaching. The balance has to be to give the best education possible for the most students. Sometimes students need to see that option 1 is a challenging lesson learning with their peers, socialisinf at breaks etc and option 2 is working in silence from some workbooks and loss of free time. Ultimately, we want all studnets in class and learning.

I don't leave him to suffer. I tell him to concentrate and stop pissing about

That's like asking a child with no legs to walk

GreenTulips

It isn't remotely like asking a child with no legs to walk.

But some children need support to enable them to focus better.

So it would be reasonable to sanction a child being disruptive, talking across the room etc, but equally some strategies and tools to help them focus and do their work go hand in hand with that.

Really greentulips? There is no way a child with dyslexia can conventrate or stop pussing about? Not my experience at all. Most dyslexic people I know have excellent concentration skills - it's ome of the wzys they compensate for the dyslexia.

Is your ds planning on telling his future employers that a total inability to concentrate or stop pissing about is part of his disability? Probably not.

One of many articals on Dyslexia and concentration -

GreenTulips

Firstly, my posts were not specifically about children with dyslexia. My posts were about children who play the fool and disrupt the learning.

Secondly, I have no doubt that dyslexia can make it harder for a child to concentrate. That does not mean it is impossible for a child with dyslexia to concentrate, which is the implication of suggesting it is the equivalent of asking a child without legs to walk. It isn't. Some children find it naturally easy to focus, others don't. All need to try to focus.

But to punish a child for lack of focus, when they can't focus is unfair .... wouldn't you agree?

GreenTulips

If they can't focus, it is unfair. If they find it harder to focus but aren't trying or responding to reminders, or if they are disrupting others, they are choosing to do so. Then, punishment is fair. There is no blanket rule.

Do you know Dyslexics all struggle with hearing? So you need to be in front of them to get their attention before issuing an instruction? So probably not ignoring instructions but can't actually distinguish with background noise?

GreenTulips

Sometimes they are ignoring instructions, GreenTulip. Children with dyslexia can be naughty just as easily and with the same frequency as children without.

I think you need to do some research

GreenTulips

No, GreenTulips. I think you may need to stop pronouncing on this as if you are the only one with any experience. I'm not the paper boy. I am an experienced teacher. I know when a student is ignoring me.

They struggle with memory processing - so don't always follow instructions

GreenTulips

That is why we use strategies such as repeating the instruction, breaking a series of instructions into steps, simplifying instructive language, giving a printed list of instruction, etc. Some students need support to remember a list of instructions. Some students need reminders about a single instruction. Some students deliberately ignore instructions. Please stop talking to me as if I am an idiot. I find it offensive.

as if you are the only one with any experience

LOL I teach life skills to dyslexics, and have done for years. I have a dyslexic child.

It pains me to see dyslexic children get sanctioned for their disability.

GreenTulips

And yet, you are not the only one with any experience. You come across as very arrogant, actually.

"Dyslexics"? Not a word I like.

I think that if a school needs rules like these, they have failed before they've started. Move your DS, then work with him and the school to address his behaviour alongside his MH issues - they can't be handled separately.

@Imustbemad00

You have posted the rules of the school from it's own website, therefore they are open about their (strict) behaviour policy. As a parent with children at secondary school I looked at their school's website for more info, as well as viewed the school twice - once during Open Evening and also once when the school was in operation during the day. My kids were going to be at their schools for potentially 7 years so it needed to be a good fit. I would encourage any parent looking at a school to do the same, so if you move your child please take the time to see that the new school is a good fit for your child. Ask to talk to Head of Pastoral and the SENCO about how your child will fit in.

You also mention your child had mental health issues before they went to this school. I hope as these are still ongoing you have therefore sought professional help from your GP. I know CAMHS is very overworked but it's a first step to getting some help. Also schools do have access to additional support - I have been through this with one of my own DC regarding mental health.

I can see you are angry and upset, but lots of advice on here to help you move forward and support your child.

(And yes, isolation rooms are in place in most secondary schools so that those pupils causing disruption to other pupil's learning can go there and the remainder of the class can learn. Maybe not great for the disruptive child, who needs intervention in a different way, but lack of funding means schools do what they can.)

I think that if a school needs rules like these, they have failed before they've started
Not automatically. Whilst the more military enforced style isn't to my style, there is a need for clear rules and relentless consistency when trying to turn schools around (especially if there's a lasting legacy of poor behaviour and poor outcomes).

E.g. I don't agree with everything the school in Great Yarmouth does, but I'll absolutely take my hat off to them for improving the school and shifting a culture towards learning.

Having worked in a range of contexts, I find myself appreciating the intent and outcomes of set ups that I perhaps wouldn't choose myself.

MaisyPops

I know what you mean, I agree that taking a few very unusual examples is not useful. I think my point was that there should be a place in schools for children with the full range of temperaments. Some are more creative, some more energetic, some are more vulnerable to MH issues. I think these kids need to be supported too. Supporting them doesn't have to mean "OK you're creative you can do what you want whatever the impact on everyone else" but it probably does mean giving them an outlet for their creativity and energy.

I also think that there is absolutely no circumstances in which making looking out a window a punishable offence is acceptable, nor is it ever acceptable to prevent kids from running about and expending energy during break time. For some kids this isn't manageable and for all kids it's unhealthy, what you are doing is having a massive negative impact on their mental health and you're just selecting by stealth since the pupils that aren't able to abide by the rules will be excluded or leave by choice.

Maisy, I don't think they needed to turn the school around as, according to OP, it only opened about 6 years ago, presumably growing it from Y7 upwards. I'm not sure who this school would suit, even the best behaved kids are only11 when they start, and might like to speak between lessons (as would most adults for that matter). But the school most definitely doesn't suit OP's DC.

Spokento my child about moving schools but my child doesn’t want to as has had the fear put into them by a teacher who’s told them they will end up going to a rubbish school and end up a teenage parent with no job prospects.

Apart from being untrue, that is an appalling thing to say -very unprofessional! OP, is that the only reason they are reluctant to move? In your position, I would be investigating all other possible local options including those that don't have particularly good Ofsteds. I think you have about a week to have a look around any that seem suitable.