To post on trans issues in the Feminist Chat forum?

[DadJoke]

I've been posting a lot on trans issues over in feminist chat. I am keenly aware that it's primarily a women's forum, for women to discuss issues pertaining to their needs. I also know that the presence of men in women's spaces can undermine useful discussions and become "all about the men"

When I say women, I include transwomen. I know many of you don't, but that's not at all what this AIBU is about.

So, am I making a useful contribution to the debate, or undermining it?

Clicky link

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

Guilty. That's some whack-arse extreme transactivst bullshit right there. No one should guilt or shame anyone into sleeping with anyone else.

That's what they all say... usually followed by "...but not being into dick still makes you transphobic." And as you'll know if you've read the cotton ceiling evidence thread, the people who get the most shit about this are lesbians - especially impressionable young lesbians. Hence the Pride protest. Just saying "No one should..." isn't enough. We need to get back to a clear understanding in society that lesbians are female homosexuals who have nothing to do with penises, and that anyone trying to push a different viewpoint is supporting a homophobic culture of corrective rape.

If you haven't read any articles by James Kirkup, I'd strongly recommend him. He gets that as a bloke, he's viewing this debate from the outside. He's respectful. And he states very clearly that it's the women on the front line who are getting the shit, not him.

I would hope not. You can acknowledge that transwomen are women, and support their rights without wanting to sleep with them.

Not your type, then?

SimonBridges Therefore there is a difference between women and trans women.

There is absolutely a difference beween non-trans and transwomen. I don't think anyone would disagree.

You can acknowledge that transwomen are women, and support their rights without wanting to sleep with them.

And that argument neatly gets men out of making any concessions in this matter. You get to decide whether or not to sleep with transwomen - and you also get to tell women what they should do in the interest of tolerance, acceptance and human rights. Great.

You do realise, don't you, that stating that you would only sleep with people with a vulva is transphobic, transexclusionary and 'literal violence against transwomen'? You said upthread that There are very few voices on mumsnet who support the acceptance of transwomen as women. Well, you don't seem to support it either (when it doesn't suit you). But then again, as a man you'll probably get away with it.

TellEveryoneRealFacts I disagree, because the evidence shows there is any measurable risk from gender-assigned public bathrooms to women and girls, and not least of all because that's how they currently work - transwomen tend to use the women's.

Of course you disagree, you have literally no idea what you are talking about and have already shown that you think we should accept what you don't. Because you have double standards. So are an unreliable narrator.

I meant wouldn’t have a relationship with a transwoman.

EmpressWeaponisedClitoris Thank you for the reference - I'll take a look.

YOU JUST CALLED US NON-TRANSWOMEN.

Women.

Just women.

Womening on.

This is a pretty self-absorbed thread even by AIBU standards.

I'm a feminist but I don't need to go to the feminist boards to be one and I hadn't planned to post here originally just hide the thread.

Only posted because I find it silly when OP's try to dictate who may respond to their thread...especially in AIBU.

There is absolutely a difference beween non-trans and transwomen. I don't think anyone would disagree.

The words you need are 'women' and transwomen. Not 'non-trans'.

We are women. Most women are indeed non-gender binary as they do not all waft about in floaty-lite dresses filing their nails. Stop with your disingenuous bullshit about women.

There is absolutely a difference beween non-trans and transwomen

So transwomen are women AND there is a difference between non-trans and transwomen?

Do you really, honestly believe that?

Where we disagree fundamentally, is that I think that gender identity is an innate sense, whereas you think it's a belief like a religion. So I call sex female and male, and gender woman and man, and that's where we get into a big spat.

No - doesn’t matter to me if it’s a belief, a mental trick or a religion.

What matters to me is that the male sex (‘men’) as a class pose a threat to the female sex (‘women’) and if we agree that a human cannot change sex, despite any deeply held belief/desire/wish, then we cannot just allow any old ‘man’ to self ID as a ‘woman’ as it open the female sex class up to the possibility of violence.

Most men are not a threat.
Most trans people are not a threat.
Some men are violent and happy to do whatever necessary to inflict that on women. Statistics prove this.

So why would we make it easier by agreeing that men can self-define as women if they feel like it?

Laws based on feelings are bullshit.

Gender is man made nonsense to keep us all in boxes. It is damaging to men as well as women.
By gendering jobs and clothes and hobbies and emotions we do everyone a disservice.

Yes why are you posting in AIBU where people wont have read your posts?

Of course anyone who likes can post. It's likely to be the content of the posts that is the problem.

HTH

There is absolutely a difference beween non-trans and transwomen. I don't think anyone would disagree. What?! What the hell does that mean?

DadJoke if you really so desperately need affirmation then I suppose you have done one useful thing. In posting on AIBU then some people who do not go to the women's rights issues may find some of the topics interesting. Other than that I'm not finding that you have added or subtracted from my thinking on these issues.

jay55 By gendering jobs and clothes and hobbies and emotions we do everyone a disservice.

I agree. Cultural expectations based arounf gender expression are oppressive.

're race. It is racist to say you'd not have sex with someone because of their race. No does not exclude them from supporting civil rights but does reveal a level of hypocrisy and still does not mean they are not racist. They are. And also patronising hypocrites.

There can be many reasons for not being attracted to a person. Fine. It's personal preferance. But if you are saying that someone is a particular sex, if you are supporting a group that says a penis can be a lady penis and so should be accepted as such you really should be willing to entertain the idea of sex with said lady penis owner - that is their very own argument. You are supporting a group that is prepared to scorn, osticise and bully lesbians who like you prefer vulvas to lady penises. So if you think they are right to do that, you should be prepared to have sex with them.

Also if the core of what you want to convey is the idea that gender is innate where are your arguments/evidence to support that stance? Asserting a belief over and over is a very weak form of argument.

However if you go back through the threads in the Women's Rights section you will find multitudes of posters who have provided evidence to support the position that gender is social/cultural and sex is not.

NoSquirrels Laws based on feelings are bullshit.

Yes, laws should be based on evidence. The medical establshment, WHO, the NHS, and most human rights organistations (and me) think the evidence shows there is no increased risk to non-trans women as a result of laws and practices which accept the rights of transgender and gender non-conforming individuals. The also accept that gender identity is real. You and nost feminists on MN don't agree.

That said, I would absolutely oppose removing the right of sex-based protections where they are necesary and proportionate. Protected characteristics often come into conflict, and the law has to be careful and nuanced.

If you want to engage on the issues as you state, go away do some reading, look at the various arguments and counter arguments and then come back and discuss things from an informed position. Otherwise continuing to post looks like attention seeking behaviour.

That said, I would absolutely oppose removing the right of sex-based protections where they are necesary and proportionate. Protected characteristics often come into conflict, and the law has to be careful and nuanced.

Just one thought, did you get foisted from your job when you said that you wouldn't sleep with a trans woman?

As lesbians are currently being hounded out of theirs for saying the same thing.

I suppose that is not your concern though, being that they are just silly women? Why are you not on twitter or out there in real life telling TRAs NOT to harass and hound lesbians out of their jobs? Why are you on here telling women they are doing womaning wrong?