To post on trans issues in the Feminist Chat forum?

[DadJoke]

I've been posting a lot on trans issues over in feminist chat. I am keenly aware that it's primarily a women's forum, for women to discuss issues pertaining to their needs. I also know that the presence of men in women's spaces can undermine useful discussions and become "all about the men"

When I say women, I include transwomen. I know many of you don't, but that's not at all what this AIBU is about.

So, am I making a useful contribution to the debate, or undermining it?

gardengeek

We clarified earlier you dont think they are women because you like PIV sex.

No, you absolutely didn't, because I didn't say that and I don't think it. I don't think it follows at all. If I thought transmen weren't men, for example, you'd expect me to be attracted to them. I am not, because they are men. Sexuality relates to sex and/or gender by defintion.

But, I will die on the hill that people's sexual preferences for people with a particular protected characteristic or set of primary or secondary sexual characteristics has no bearing on whether that protected characteristic is real. As I mentioned, I know lesbians who acknowledge that transwomen are women without wanting to sleep with them, because they like primary female sexual characteristics. I was told they must be lying. I don't think they are. They might be wrong, but they are not lying.

I thought you has acknowledged that both sex and gender are real? Can you not see that by that definition you might be attracted to a a particular sex or particular gender or some combination of both?

I'd be sad to lose your respect, but that's what I believe.

That video, and the GC/TRA wars on Twitter are whack.

Ereshkigal No one really thinks they are women.

So, your position is that every person (who isn't a transwoman) who says transwomen are women is lying? Not even they are wrong, but just lying? That's bizarre.

Baumederose I am not telling women to leave a women's forum. I am suggesting that if you don't want to participate in a particular thread, just leave it. You joined the thread, you've participated, and you can leave any time. Or by all means stay, as you wish. It's not up to me.

Then why on earth are you engaging with me? There have been a lot of posters on thread who have. I assume that when they direct questions to me they want answers. There are two bajillion threads on this forum - why are you here? I'm not taking up bandwidth, or forcing anyone to say anything. If it's fun or useful then stay. If it's a waste of your time, then by all means go.

Your words, not mine.

GardenGeek Right,. I gotcha.

And I don't deplore GC feminists, I deplore the abuse and mockery some of them throw at transgender people, particularly transwomen.

That delightful image has some strking similarities to the deleted "I am Spartacus" thread.

GardenGeek I am going to set up an account on Monday and start by asking questions.

OK, I am done here for the weekend. If there are questions on Monday, I'll address them, if not, not.

Thank you for spurring me on to do this gardengeek and now I have an agenda thanks to you,. I'll get back with you with a report.

My question is why are you ignoring the fact that the concept of 'cis' is incoherent.

What? I've read his views. They are extremely misogynist. I am just pointing out that he avoided a salient question.

So, your position is that every person (who isn't a transwoman) who says transwomen are women is lying? Not even they are wrong, but just lying? That's bizarre.

No I don't think they are necessarily lying (though some are) Cognitive dissonance. I don't think deep down anyone thinks they are really women, least of all themselves or they wouldn't fly off the handle every time people say they're not women. Why would my opinion matter so much? MB gets it. MB said that people are only humouring them. Yes. But that's not good enough, because for most this is about power.

Wading on very late but interested by GardenGeek rather than the OP is that allowed!

In terms if the lying thing a boy TWAW, I think it's a matter of the name game. You call something by a different name long enough and it sticks. When that very famous company changed its name I thought that will never stick! But a short while on I could not remember the former name.

The people desperate to assert TWAW have simply switched out or up in their minds what being a woman means. This is why they can do it. It's a mental trick that we can all do to deal with areas of life that challenge us. But it does obscure the truth and for trans people themselves I think it is very unhelpful.

I also think we will not win unless we include trans people so it is more damage limitation.

My issue about gender is that it is stereotypes and if you said those stereotypes about ethnicity or age one would be shouted down (and rightly so).

I'd like teenage girls to know they can dress androgynously and not 'be' a boy, and males who like dressing in frills, go for it, the court of Louis whatever at Versailles was the same!

I am nervous to enshrine in law anything based on feelings, like 'misgendering'. Let's enshrine in law 'no to bullying behaviour'.

Then misgendering when designed to bully would be caught by that. Accidental or whatever would not. And I cannot force you in law to call me 'he' but I can say if you are behaving in a bullying way about me not being happy to be called 'she', then we can take it from there.

No, you absolutely didn't, because I didn't say that and I don't think it.

There is absolutely a difference beween non-trans and transwomen

There is absolutely a difference between women and transwomen.

Fixed that for you.

Do you speak/write about non-trans and transmen?

Men always have to be the subject, the centre and the referent - even if they are adamant that they are not men.

Trans are not women. Ever. Even after surgery they are still male.

Like it or not, it is biology that sets the rules about what sex you are not what you feel.
You are not ‘born in the wrong body’, your sex is what you are born with. That can lead people to presume what colours, clothes, hobbies, jobs etc that you will enjoy. Gender is stupid. Your gentitals will determin your biology but not your interests. If gender is destroyed, everyone will benefit.

If biology is ignored health problems will not be picked up on as quick. Women and men experience heart attacks differently. If a man grows a beard it means he has a beard but if a women grows a beard, it means something is going wrong with her. Something that will affect her fertility and health. Biology is very important.

Why not fight to distroy gender norms so that a man can freely wear a dress and makeup without needing to chop bits off. Women had to fight for the right to wear trousers. Hell, if men stared to wear dresses it wouldn’t be long before no one cared about it. No man would be hurt.

Only men say that you can ‘feel’ like a women. To men, being female is an act, a set of ignorant stereotypes about what being a woman is about.
Cultural appropriation is seen as offensive and reducing cultures to costumes. It is the same when it comes to men saying they ‘feel’ like a women. It is offensive, patronising and rude.