To post on trans issues in the Feminist Chat forum?

[DadJoke]

I've been posting a lot on trans issues over in feminist chat. I am keenly aware that it's primarily a women's forum, for women to discuss issues pertaining to their needs. I also know that the presence of men in women's spaces can undermine useful discussions and become "all about the men"

When I say women, I include transwomen. I know many of you don't, but that's not at all what this AIBU is about.

So, am I making a useful contribution to the debate, or undermining it?

Again you’re making this about individuals. It isnt about individuals.

It’s about the circumstances and reasons we have sex segregated spaces. We don’t have many - the ones we are proportionate and necessary because men as a class are a danger to women and children.

It matters not one whit how nice a single man is. My dh is a delight - no threat to anyone. He still accepts exclusion from female only areas because he understand that some men are a threat, so all men are excluded.

If self ID comes in, any man at all will be able to access female spaces with no right of challenge.

Transwomen retain the same patterns and rates of criminal and sexual offending as men. Thus they are as dangerous, or not, as any other man. Thus they are excluded.

Even if every transwoman on the planet was a saint, self ID lets men into those spaces - effectively no women only spaces left.

Decades of data shows that some sex segregated spaces are needed to kerpeomen and children safe.

You are proposing removal of all single sex spaces. Men don’t want that, women certainly don’t want that,

The answer is no. No to unisex everything. If you don’t mind the unisex spaces campaign for the men’s to go unisex. The women’s is not your space to give away.

@DadJoke .What if the vulva owner doesn't like medically created vulvas or penises.
Is that a problem for you?

I don't see the need to take over women's space, it's like the feminist group I attend where we were shouted at by completed accepted trans women, for wanting to include the impact of menopause to the workplace in a forum on women and the workplace, because not all women experience menopause (they were referring to transwomen), well not all women experience maternity and pregnancy but we talk about those, and why as biological women should we not be able to talk about issues that affect women because they do not affect transwomen?? We quite happily discuss issues that affect trans women and not others. It's the seeming need to dominate women's space that is the issue. I've only seen the OP on a couple of threads, I tend to lurk rather than contribute in that area, but she does exactly the same tries to dominate every thread with her perspective. Now brings it to AIBU, what for, more attention or for the daily mail??

Nope - I like vulvas.

Ah. A transphobic vagina fetishist.

Nope - I like vulvas. People's sexual preferences are absolutely there own, nor do I expect anyone to change them to please anyone else.

Aye right...a bit like all most men then?

Inclusionary in the tweets

Exclusionary in the sheets

Right-ho.

Nope - I like vulvas. People's sexual preferences are absolutely there own, nor do I expect anyone to change them to please anyone else.

Well, I’m pretty sure that makes you at least prejudiced, if not bigoted and transphobic...

A trans woman who is attracted to men needs to find a bisexual man, I guess? Because they can’t have a relationship with you (vulva-preferer) or with a man who prefers penises.

Tough gig, for being the same as all other women in all ways, huh?

Bowlofbabelfish
You’re denying that internationally recognised data on violence against women exists and should drive policy

I acknowledge that internationally recognised data on violence against women exists and should drive policy. That data shows that segregating by gender and not sex in public bathrooms has no measureable effect on violence against any woman by transwomen, which was neglible before laws were changed, and has been shown to be negligible afterwards. This is me disagreeing with you. I am not intending to be disrespectful.

I've only seen the OP on a couple of threads, I tend to lurk rather than contribute in that area, but she does exactly the same tries to dominate every thread with her perspective.

The OP's a bloke, FASH. And yes, you damn well should be able to include menopause. I'm expecting mine to start in the next couple of years & talking to other women about their experiences of it is invaluable as far as I'm concerned.

Man gets short shrift from uppity women in one area, so goes to complain in another area, only to find more uppity women. You'd think man might reflect...

Well is your contribution useful? You'd have to ask the women you're discussing things with, wouldn't you. (Then you'd have to believe their answer, even if it's not the one you want).

There are very few voices on mumsnet who support the acceptance of transwomen as women. is bollocks btw, there are lots and lots. They don't hang out in FWR. If you want to chat to them, by all means, go and find them and chat.

From what you've said here, you soud like someone who barges into a discussion on the 'how to' or 'how I feel' of something and says 'this is not the disucssion you should be having, I disagree with the premise of your discussion and demand that you explain yourselves to me, so I can tell you why you're wrong and should actually be discussing something else'. In that situation, going in with the intention of disgreeing is not just unconstructive, it's irrelevant. The premise has already been agreed. If you're not interested in taking part in a discussion wtih that premise, go and start your own discussion on the topic and premise that interests you.

It's like going into a discussion amongst members of the 'we dislike tomatoes' club, about alternative pizza and pasta recipes and saying 'but you should like tomatoes, tomatoes are great!' To which the answer is 'Huh? Why are you here?'. Or, more true to life, you're an argumentative omnivore at a meeting of the vegan society. Why would you bother? Barging in and wasting people's precious time like that is just rude.

BTW I'm very anti the view that men are all threats, I comment regularly to that effect, eg children shouldn't be left alone with male non parental relatives, children shouldn't be allowed to wander around with no top on on the beach etc , all nonsense. I have lots of experience working with sexual offenders and very few incidents are stranger attacks. I also see how self identification is being used within the prison establishment for dangerous male sex offenders to infiltrate the female estate, self id will make this worse. But the main point for me is that this is a discussion for women to be able to have in a women's space, these are becoming increasingly infiltrated by men, are we not allowed to have our own thoughts, opinions and discussions without a man to police it?

I'm not sure what the point is of you coming in to a female forum and posting as a man.

I wouldn't have the cheek to go on a male forum and tell the blokes there what they should be doing and thinking and feeling. It's none of my business.

That data shows that segregating by gender and not sex in public bathrooms has no measureable effect on violence against any woman by transwomen

Are you deliberately missing the points that:

1. Transwomen have the same pattern and rate of offending as men (thus are counted as men in terms of class analysis of danger)
2. Self ID allows MEN into that space.

Men are the problem. Male violence. Self ID allows men in.

Do I need to make this point more clearly?

Men. The issue is men.

NoSquirrels Well, I’m pretty sure that makes you at least prejudiced, if not bigoted and transphobic...

I think that's a strong possibilty, though I honestly don't know the reason why. Only about 18% of straight men will consider transwomen as sexual partners, though that number is increasing.

And you are absolutely right It's a really, really tough gig being transgender. No one would chose it.

Trans issues are not womens issues.
They might cause women issues but transwomen are not women so their issues are not womens issues in & of themselves.

Wonders if I can get the word issues into that sentence a few more times?

" I also know that the presence of men in women's spaces can undermine useful discussions and become "all about the men"

I think you've probably answered your own question right there tbh.

Going by what you've written here, you've taken it upon yourself to go into a Feminist Chat forum to tell women that they don't know what a woman actually is.

And you've somehow managed to convince yourself that this is a useful contribution?

SuitedandBooted

That sages link- I looked at it. It’s set up like an academic paper, but one of the “citations” is a tumblr survey. Not a survey mentioned on tumblr, oh no, tumblr is the actual primary source.

How is anyone supposed to take your argument seriously when that’s how you try to convey it? I was willing to listen, you lost me.

I think your answers come from a place where you’ve never had to consider the other side and you’re still not.

So your answers are both irrelevant and highly annoying. And completely indicative of male opinions.

So it's ok for you to say 'no, I only have sex with somebody with a vulva' but it's not ok for women to say 'we only want people with a vulva in our bathrooms / women's shelters etc?

The mind boggles.

EmpressWeaponisedClitoris Ah. A transphobic vagina fetishist.

Guilty. That's some whack-arse extreme transactivst bullshit right there. No one should guilt or shame anyone into sleeping with anyone else.

In all the many many trans threads I have read, nobody has ever changed their mind and decided that actually penises in the ladies' are a great idea when they previously thought the opposite.

Also: show the data. When you do, please check how crime stats were recorded (by sex or gender.)

How would it even be collated, if any crime was recorded as being committed by a woman?

The numbers of transwomen are low. Whether we’d expect to see a clear data signal this soon is unclear. What I would expect to see is an increase in male driven crime as men can now access the female space. And indeed that’s what we have seen for example a threefold recorded increase in voyeuristic crime reported in unisex dressing rooms in USA retailers who have adopted unisex areas.

I acknowledge that internationally recognised data on violence against women exists and should drive policy. That data shows that segregating by gender and not sex in public bathrooms has no measureable effect on violence against any woman by transwomen, which was neglible before laws were changed, and has been shown to be negligible afterwards. This is me disagreeing with you. I am not intending to be disrespectful.

The error in your calculations is that it is impossible to even determine whether assaults happen after mixed gender bathrooms come in, as anyone reporting such assaults will immediately be called a bigot and transphobic and potentially sacked or ostracised from their social circle. It is not an honest premise to start off with.

It also isn't about the assaults.

It is about privacy.

Which you will never get because you are a man.

You haven't had to rinse out and dry a skirt/trousers because blood has seeped through it.

You have never had to clear up after a heavy blood loss, potentially miscarriage, ask another woman for toilet tissue, sanitary protection, to borrow a jumper to put round your waist just so that you can go back to work for the afternoon.

You will never understand the horror of coming on and having switched bags that morning and forgetting any protection. Of waiting for someone to nip out at lunch and get you some protection hoping that the toilet paper is soaking up the blood currently oozing out of your vagina, whilst you cover for the colleague on reception hoping that the chair is ok when you stand up.

And that is just the blood. Before we even start on the other uses for an exclusive female toilet in the modern world.

@EmpressWeaponisedClitoris I assumed OP was a transwomen I have no issue with using a female pronoun if that is the case, if not frankly he can fuck off completely. To me this is much about theoretical and belief space as it is physical space, I have no issue with communal toilets etc as everyone is in cubicles anyway, and as I said in experienced in risk assessment and working with sex offenders so I know some of the statements about physical risk to women and girls in public spaces are hyperbole at best, but I do not like this continuous creeping take over of feminist ideology, being a woman, being a transwoman and being a man are all different things, funny how you don't see the trans community taking over male only arenas.....

What MrsTerry said is spot on.

You include trans women as women. So when you date do you date these trans women and do you have sex with them if they still have their man bits. Would you marry one? Even if you can't be honest on here, be honest with yourself. Because looking at some of the complaints trans activists make a lot of their complaints are that the very vast majority of Trans allies do not do this. You may be in that tiny minority of straight non trans people willing to enter a same sex sexual relationship. But if you are not then you most definitely do not believe these people to be women.