To post on trans issues in the Feminist Chat forum?

[DadJoke]

I've been posting a lot on trans issues over in feminist chat. I am keenly aware that it's primarily a women's forum, for women to discuss issues pertaining to their needs. I also know that the presence of men in women's spaces can undermine useful discussions and become "all about the men"

When I say women, I include transwomen. I know many of you don't, but that's not at all what this AIBU is about.

So, am I making a useful contribution to the debate, or undermining it?

YABU

Not because you’re a man posting about feminist issues (although not sure how much you can add to that conversation) but because you are making it all about you rather than the actual issues

I hate to say typical attention seeking all-about-me Male behaviour... but if the shoe fits...

Having just read some of your posts, you seem to have no respect for the possibility that women (adult human females, NOT a "gender", as you classify them) may have different experiences & priorities to you, & I didn't find a clear explanation of why men (adult human males) shouldn't be taking responsibility for the problem & offering their toilets, changing rooms etc as a safe gender-neutral space, thus leaving female-only areas for the women who feel the need for them.

So yes, I'm afraid you do come across as a mansplainer.

MrsTerryPratchett Do you think you, as a man, coming into a predominately female site, going to a feminist section (which is a bout women's rights) and disagreeing with most people is useful? If yes, why do you think it's useful?

Because I find it useful myself to engage with people I disagree with, because it makes me reconsider my position. YMMV, which is why I was asking. I don't know better, I just generally disagree. There are very few voices on mumsnet who support the acceptance of transwomen as women.

AIBU to post on trans issues in the Feminist Chat forum?
YANBU.

So, am I making a useful contribution to the debate, or undermining it?
No idea.

I think that answers my question. Thanks for engaging.

Me-railing

Isn’t the answer to create a Trans area within the Feminist board? You can talk about issues relating to Trans men and women there.
I don’t think Chat is the right area for the kind of posting you seem to want.

There are very few voices on mumsnet who support the acceptance of transwomen as women.

Generally because they can’t back in their argument past “acceptance of differences”, which is all well and good as far as it goes, and pretty much all the FWR posters start there on a human level, but when it boils down to it no one can argue away biology.

Sex matters.

Well, that's probably because transwomen aren't women. Not really much more to discuss.

Back to the football then?

It's coming home.... it's coming home
Football's coming home.

I don't think you make a useful contribution. You're not interested in a biological woman's perspective. And you just keep repeating yourself. No one cares about your selfish self centered view point. Its not helpful in the slightest. Your male self entitlement is pretty dull too. Hth. By the way, transwomen are not women. So you need to campaign for a third space or utilise the men's instead. Because infiltrating women's space isn't an option.

DadJoke William Jaggs now identifies as a woman, is out on day release, and is using women only spaces.

You accept Jaggs as a woman (for everything except relationship purposes?); I dont think men with a history of violence should be allowed to change their legal sex.
You think your opinion is more worthy than mine.

This thread is only relevant to people who have read the posts. I don't expect anyone to hoof over there and read them to answer this question.

I love the expectation that they will hoof it over here to answer

When I say women, I include transwomen. I know many of you don't, but that's not at all what this AIBU is about

So you include people like this lovely "lesbian" lady?

You're a bloke. Womens rights and boundaries are not your gift to give away

Read and learn:
sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

I don't think many people really accept that transwomen are women, ime it's done out of politeness.

Everyone knows really that men can't become women and vice versa. Everyone.

There are very few voices on mumsnet who support the acceptance of transwomen as women.

For a start, transwomen are transwomen not actual women.

Secondly, we have transwomen on FWR, some of whom are for transwomen in women's spaces and some who are not.

Thirdly, you are a bloke...what has it got to do with you exactly?

Fourthly, transwomen do have issues with prejudice...but they are totally unrelated and completely different to women's issues.

And lastly...whilst there are some women who are for transwomen in womens' spaces, they usually mean those who have actually trans-itioned, not ones who literally say 'i am a woman, let me in,'...with absolutely no trans-itioning in mind.

These are the people who we don't want in any female spaces, and because we have stated this, we are harassed, intimidated, told to go for in a fire, some have been assaulted and so the line ends up being 'actually, are any men who want to transition to be trusted?'.

Ah, it's always refreshing to have a man's input, especially with issues which largely affect women. What would we do without men telling us how things are.

So, DadJoke, if transwomen are women I assume you would have absolutely no problem with having a sexual relationship with a transwoman (or with a transman, if you're gay)?

Oh dear. Women say 'No. We don't agree with you'. So man keeps trying to press his opinion in the vain hope we will change our silly minds. How unusual .

So glad you brought this into AIBU?

As I say, it is showing lurkers that we are not actually against trans people at all, but questioning the reality of the situation and how it affects women and girls and their safety and security.

dolorsit I don't expect anyone to hoof anywhere! People can answer threads or not as they see fit.

UpstartCrow It's not about worthiness, it's about disagreement. I respect your views, I just don't share them.

I think violent individuals of any gender should be treated according to their history, not their gender. Where their sex is relevant, trans or otherwise it should be take into account. But I don't agree that painting all transgender people with the same brush is proportionate, any more than any other protected characteristic. I know you don't share this view.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts So glad you brought this into AIBU?

No, I really am not. I am right numpty and I've been rightly called on it.

You’re being patronising and dismissive about women’s experience and violence against women.
You’re denying that internationally recognised data on violence against women exists and should drive policy
You’re expecting to come on as a Manly Man and Give Your Manly opinion, that we silly ladies may be educated. That tends not to go down terribly well on MN. I know IRL people tend to listen to men more and it can be quite a shock to hear what women actually think when they don’t have to be nice all the time.

Also your arguments have no internally consistent logic, and you’re denying science. That's really annoying.

So is your contribution useful? Well everyone is allowed a voice here if they stick to talk guidelines (btw, TAAT is generally frowned on, as a heads up) but you’re not adding anything useful other than the usual rather tedious male denial of female consent.
Which does rather show a point of view I suppose.

Carry on.

TheVermiciousKnid So, DadJoke, if transwomen are women I assume you would have absolutely no problem with having a sexual relationship with a transwoman (or with a transman, if you're gay)?

Nope - I like vulvas. People's sexual preferences are absolutely there own, nor do I expect anyone to change them to please anyone else.

I haven’t read it all, but on the basis of the question alone it seems a really really odd place to have the discussion. Why do you think only women should hear the message, why go into the most overtly female space to have it when there are LOTS of more gender irrelevant places to go.
My only presumption is you are out to convert, which is annoying when you chase people to do so. Choose a general board or fight for an appropriate space.
I’d equate it with me putting up posters in the men’s changing room about the poor provision and state of sanitary bins. Not the audience

So there is a difference between women and transwomen then - transwomen aren't really women?

No, I really am not. I am right numpty and I've been rightly called on it

Yup

I had high hopes...really i did

Perpetually disappointed