To post on trans issues in the Feminist Chat forum?

[DadJoke]

I've been posting a lot on trans issues over in feminist chat. I am keenly aware that it's primarily a women's forum, for women to discuss issues pertaining to their needs. I also know that the presence of men in women's spaces can undermine useful discussions and become "all about the men"

When I say women, I include transwomen. I know many of you don't, but that's not at all what this AIBU is about.

So, am I making a useful contribution to the debate, or undermining it?

DadJoke if you think that 'transwomen are women' and you are attracted to 'women' then saying you only have 'sex' with vulvas counts as transphobic.

Also we don't have a 'line' on MN, people have differing views, I accept transwomen who transition and who have lived as women as 'women' for all practical intents and purposes. I include in that category those who retain a penis!

However there is a huge difference between saying that and saying that anyone who says they are a woman miraculously becomes one. It also doesn't mean I accept that sex which is a biological category and gender which is a social/cultural one should be conflated.

Also I don't think my personal stance enables me to impose views on all other women. It's a complex issue and the debates on MN are a way of thinking it through for some of us, expressing thoughts for others, raising issues and so on. All part and parcel of being part of a particular community. It is in many ways similar to the rl consciousness-raising groups that were common before online communities.

I'm expecting mine to start in the next couple of years & talking to other women about their experiences of it is invaluable as far as I'm concerned.

I am a female in an all male team. I talk about the menopause all the fucking time! It is a fucking nightmare and I tell the men I work with what actually happens so that they might be able to support their wives and partners should they be privileged enough to still have one at that point.

Dadjoke... sexual orientation is attraction to whole classes of people (females for straight men and gay women; males for gay men and straight women). It operates on a completely different level from personal preferences and right of veto towards a potential partner as an individual.

This pomo, individualist, liberal bollocks is addling people's brains... they can't see the classes for all the individuals in them

lottiegarbanzo My main reason for contributing was that there were questions being asked about gender identity, definitions of womenhood seeking about answers from trans friendly contributors. In general I only respond to people who ask me questions.

The medical establishment, human rights bodies, and most progressive governments agree that transgender people are the gender they identify with, and I know trans individuals and professionally spend time with intersectional feminists who acknowledge that. That's where my knowledge and position originates. So, engaging with people in a place where debates about such issues are permitted rather than shut down I have found very useful and I've learned a lot.

TheVermiciousKnid I think it's OK to exclude transwomen from women's spaces, inculding women's shelters if it's proportionate and necessary. That's the current law, and I support it.

So saying 'transwomen are women' is really rather pointless, isn't it.

tellseveryone

Yes

And the fact that male crimes are being recorded and reported as female crimes

DadJoke if you think that 'transwomen are women' and you are attracted to 'women' then saying you only have 'sex' with vulvas counts as transphobic.

I am happy to accept it might be ingrained transphobia.

No one should guilt or shame anyone into sleeping with anyone else.

Then why should we be guilted or shamed into sharing bathrooms, changing rooms, women’s shelters etc?

I am happy to accept it might be ingrained transphobia.

So who are you to tell us that your ingrained transphobia trumps ours?

When yours is only about who you are dipping your cock into, whilst ours is literally about the lives and safety of women and girls?

@DadJoke I think that's a strong possibilty, though I honestly don't know the reason why

The ‘reason why’ is because if you honestly deep-down believe that ‘trans women are women’ then you would be willing to have a sexual relationship with them. You’d believe that a created vulva was as good as a real one. Or that the lack of one didn’t mean you couldn’t be sexually attracted to that person - after all, you’d become attracted to their womanly essence wouldn’t you? We don’t go around with our vulvas on display, for the most part.

But you know it’s not true. People without vulvas are not ‘women’. They are trans women. Which is great - embrace who you are! Just stop trying to appropriate our language and sex-based protections.

The interesting thing here is:

We could tell you to go fuck yourself and your manly opinions and it would stand

If you self-ided as a women, and we said the same thing, we would be banned for that.

Interesting. No?

So who are you to tell us that your ingrained transphobia trumps ours?

When yours is only about who you are dipping your cock into, whilst ours is literally about the lives and safety of women and girls?

^^Posted too soon, meant to add - well bloody said!!

In general I only respond to people who ask me questions. So why not ask those people whether they found your response useful? Simple.

Why all the attention-seeking in AIBU? It seems to contradict the above claim rather directly!

The medical establishment, human rights bodies, and most progressive governments agree that transgender people are the gender they identify with, and I know trans individuals and professionally spend time with intersectional feminists who acknowledge that.

YY to all that. I am 100% happy to agree with trans people that they are the ‘gender’ they identify with (even though personally I think ‘gender’ is what’s wrong with society) as long as ‘gender’ is divorced from ‘sex’.

I’ll agree and support gender-based stuff. Happy to affirm.

But not to cede the definition of ‘woman’ ‘female’ or ‘biology’ or ‘sex’.

I can’t say fairer than that, but it’s not enough for a very vocal set of trans people.

Posted too soon, meant to add - well bloody said!!

Thank you. It makes me so angry that these men who literally run NO risks on a daily basis are happy to lecture US about toilets whilst also admitting that they don't even believe what they tell us we should believe.

On the sexuality issue. There are many people who aren't attracted to people of other races. That might well be ingrained racism. Does that mean that such people are automatically against civil rights for other races? I would hope not. You can acknowledge that transwomen are women, and support their rights without wanting to sleep with them.

TellEveryoneRealFacts I disagree, because the evidence shows there is any measurable risk from gender-assigned public bathrooms to women and girls, and not least of all because that's how they currently work - transwomen tend to use the women's.

DadJoke I also understand that my stance cannot be a universal one, because although I hold a position on transwomen as stated, that has to be inflected by how that would translate for women across a range of situations. As an example if I were, like the brave women at Pride, a woman who is solely same-sex orientated being expected to have a sexual relationship with a transwoman who retains biologically male genitalia is just not on. So in that context the idea that transwomen are women takes on different significance.

Mumsnet is the only forum in which there are actually debates/discussions about these complex issues and the potential impact of changes in the law on all women. I hadn't been aware of some of the pressures that women face in the lesbian community until reading about it on here or the appalling misogyny faced by women who simply want to consider women's issues.

You can acknowledge that transwomen are women, and support their rights without wanting to sleep with them.

Or let them have access to all your rights.

You say you that trans women are women but that you would have a relationship with a trans woman.
Therefore there is a difference between women and trans women.

Because I realised by the reaction of someone I was talking to the other day that it's not yet common knowledge, I will take the opportunity of saying it in a high traffic area:

Teen boys are being accepted into girl guides as a girl and going on residential sharing dorms and shower rooms. Parents are not informed. As far as they are concerned it's all girls.

Some right on parents may be fine with this. Because of course, the boy identifies as female There for has no interest in their girls bodies.

Wonder how they're feeling after the Pride demonstration. That actually trans people may consider themselves Gay or lesbians so are attracted to the same sex bodies. Still happy for them to share dorms and shower rooms? Some will be some won't. Why should the fonts have to put up and shut up? Why is their very real distress considered less than the distress of the male who prefers the female gender stereotype distress? Third space makes more sense. As does erosion of the whole how boys should behave and act and how girls should behave and act. And erosion of homophobia. The act of sex should be enjoyed however one pleases as long as it's consenting adults. Boys wearing skirts, make up behaving in ways tradituonaly considered feminine - crack on, they should not have to or even come to the conclusion they must be female. No they are males who do not conform to the make gender stereotype and should be able to get on with it without comment and use spaces reserved for the male sexnwithout fear. Same for the women. I do not conform to the female stereotype and never have. I still want my female sex only spaces and consider myself female. I'm just a female who does not conform.

The feminism boards are for posts about feminism, not trans rights. Why on earth would you think trans rights are a feminist issue? Would you go and post about trans rights on a MRA forum? In fact, maybe you should seeing as it’s men who kill and rape trans people. Let us know how you get on there....

I agree with those who say you are arguing from a perspective of not having to deal with these issues, although on a post of yours you do say you have children with sen so it’s a shame you don’t have more empathy for vulnerable women. I have autism and same sex spaces are very important to me. The thought of a male bodied person in the room while I get tampons out of a machine, need to adjust my clothing or any of the other things women do because their bodies are female makes me feel like I don’t want to leave the house. I know this might sound extreme but it is the reality for many people who have to navigate the world and have issues which affect them like I do. I am aware of my vulnerability, hence the user name as I often put my foot in it or say/do the wrong thing. This has led to me being taken advantage of by men and I have only realised how I have been used afterwards. When I know there are only females in a space I feel much safer. Whilst I seem to remember you saying trans women are not any more dangerous than other women but this doesn’t match what I have read and anyway, now trans crimes are being reported as being committed by women how are we ever going to achieve accurate data on this? So no i don’t think your contribution is useful, it is dangerous and patronising.

NoSquirrels

^YY to all that. I am 100% happy to agree with trans people that they are the ‘gender’ they identify with (even though personally I think ‘gender’ is what’s wrong with society) as long as ‘gender’ is divorced from ‘sex’.

I’ll agree and support gender-based stuff. Happy to affirm.

But not to cede the definition of ‘woman’ ‘female’ or ‘biology’ or ‘sex’.

I can’t say fairer than that, but it’s not enough for a very vocal set of trans people.^

I agree with this pretty much entirely. Sex is a real thing.

Where we disagree fundamentally, is that I think that gender identity is an innate sense, whereas you think it's a belief like a religion. So I call sex female and male, and gender woman and man, and that's where we get into a big spat.

^^petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118^^

Privacy, dignity, safety.