To post on trans issues in the Feminist Chat forum?

[DadJoke]

I've been posting a lot on trans issues over in feminist chat. I am keenly aware that it's primarily a women's forum, for women to discuss issues pertaining to their needs. I also know that the presence of men in women's spaces can undermine useful discussions and become "all about the men"

When I say women, I include transwomen. I know many of you don't, but that's not at all what this AIBU is about.

So, am I making a useful contribution to the debate, or undermining it?

Dottierichardson there was a massive thread on gender identity where this was discussed, another where it was suggested that trans people are mentally ill, another asking what the word cisgender was for. I contributed to those threads addressing the question, and there were very few other trans friendly contributors.

Oh and if you do come back provide citations for the evidence, don't just assert that it exists. And no Wikipedia is not an acceptable source.

Why that actual fuck should those of us who have hidden the FWR section give a toss what a random man on the internet chooses to do?

Do you think we should give you a pat on the back and a medal for being such a brave boy and interacting with the nasty feminists?

You're also blithely ignoring the fact that the phrase "non-trans women" is just as offensive as the use of cisgender. This again shows how little respect you appear to have for the women you're discussing this with.

When LastTrainEast & MrPan post about trans issues they get it right.

Please stop conflating biological sex and gender identity. They are completely different things, as your distaste at the idea of a relationship with a transwoman clearly illustrates. Women in some contexts, but not in others, eh?

We are in this mess socially/politcally/legally because of this confusion of the two concepts.

People are entitled to whatever presentation style they like (subject to basic decency and smart enough for the particular context like work), likewise for interests and preferences.

But it is biologically being a woman that disadvantages women in a sexist society... risk of rape, predation, being perved on, maternity discrimination, being deemed a maternity risk if merely of childbearing age, women's debilitating gynaecological issues being dismissed/under-researched by the male dominated senior medical profession etc etc. Material and substantive stuff that affects & impedes the minutae of all our lives, not subjective and ethereal ideals of identity and infinite consumerist choices in a global market place. Wishing not to be spied on through a wall is not the same as choosing to don a pair of sparkly stilletoes.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts

^Just one thought, did you get foisted from your job when you said that you wouldn't sleep with a trans woman?

As lesbians are currently being hounded out of theirs for saying the same thing.

I suppose that is not your concern though, being that they are just silly women? Why are you not on twitter or out there in real life telling TRAs NOT to harass and hound lesbians out of their jobs? Why are you on here telling women they are doing womaning wrong?^

It would be very disrespectful of me to state in work environment apropos of nothing my sexual preferences based on peoples' protected characteristics. It's fine to not want to sleep with transgender people, and I was asked directly.

Without any other context, I think it would be wrong for anyone's employment to be terminated on that basis.

If you switch gender identity for race, you'll get a clearer idea of my position. If someone posted on twitter "I would never sleep with an Asian person" with no context, I think that would be wrong. But if you were asked in another context, you might answer.

As for what I am doing elsewhere, I am having similar conversations with intersectional feminists whose views I don't share.

What’s a non trans woman or a cis woman?

Would that be ummmm a women.

Over complicating things mate

Reeeeeeeee

Also trans women rights?

Why is there a need for this?

Men have rights. Women have rights and while we have spent a lot of time fighting for and have gained some equality we are still fighting for this.

Why? Why is the female sex fighting for the rights that the male sex enjoys?

Because the male sex created a society where women must behave a certain way and men must behave a certain way. They also declared the male sex and the created gender identity for this sex supreme.

Any who do not behave the way that people who have certain genitalia are supposed to behave are considered aberrations and are to be derided and ostricised. This has led to people believing that if they behave in a way that has been deemed manly or womanly they must really be a man or a woman. This is nonsens. They are a male of female who does not conform to or accept the constructed identity for thwir sex.

So the rights they should be fighting for is not to enter sex segregated spaces, sports or reserved positions but to fight for the right to be male or female in whatever way they wish without fear or discrimination. However this right should not mean they enter spaces reserved for the safety of the female sex. Sympathetic as I may be that they wish to fully submerge themselves in this culture (?)there are some areas that are not open or to gather should not be open to those whose biological sex is not the same. A third space for those on both sides who feel comfortable to share space with the opposite sex is the best and fairest compromise.

KimCheesePickle I am not conflating gender identity and sex. Nor am I conflating gender identiy with gender expression, which I think you are here.

There is gender based-oppression and sex-based oppresion, and sometimes they overlap. I absolutely agree that female people are oppressed as a result of their sex.

ishing not to be spied on through a wall is not the same as choosing to don a pair of sparkly stilletoes.

And this is transphobic bullshit.

think violent individuals of any gender should be treated according to their history, not their gender. Where their sex is relevant, trans or otherwise it should be take into account. But I don't agree that painting all transgender people with the same brush is proportionate, any more than any other protected characteristic. I know you don't share this view

A systemic problem needs a systemic solution. Problematising individuals and placing responsibility on individuals to police their own boundaries and keep themselves safe without protective frameworks is dangerous and ignores reality.

Oh wow. You posted here because you wanted to divide and conquer and set women against women, didn't you? You also wanted validation. You were hoping that some women would get on their knees and suck your dick support you against those ebil feminists who were calling you out so you could use them against us and feel all righteous about yourself and your views. In other words, you tried to do what the patriarchy has always done. Hasn't worked so far.

Trans issues are for the LGBT section. Are you unreasonable to talk about women's issues on FWR? No. But you aren't a woman so you have more to learn than to contribute.

lol you are a joke.

For clarification
You don't know what a woman is
You don't know what sex is
You don't know what gender is
You don't know what a man is
You don't know what trans means
You don't know what feminism is

I read this as a goady attempt to get someone, anyone to tell a man they have no business posting in the FWR board, for karma screenshots.

I haven't read the full thread.

But - just to clarify - you have posted in AIBU to have a full thread entirely about yourself and your contributions?

Do you think this is suggestive of a massive sense of male entitlement and privilege?

You literally wish to centre - not even men - but specifically yourself in this debate.

I can only imagine what you are like in meetings.

(And BTW shutting down debate by calling it not "trans friendly" is very misleading - as you would well know).

I genuinely do not understand what kind of research would say that increasing the number of men self-identifying as women in a women-only space from "none" to "some" does not increase the risk of male violence towards women in that space.

Man inserts himself into women's conversations and is told he's not wanted. Man then attempts to find other women to tell the first women that they should genuflect to his lordly pronouncements. Other women tell him he's being a fuckwit and they're not interested either.

Pages later...

... man has yet to reflect on his fuckwittery.

Well, colour me shocked.

Hang on. My main reason for contributing was that there were questions being asked about gender identity, definitions of womenhood seeking about answers from trans friendly contributors. In general I only respond to people who ask me questions.

Now I contributed to those threads addressing the question, and there were very few other trans friendly contributors.

I can see a difference here. Can you?

Were responses from 'trans-friendly contributors' actually, actively being sought? Or did you decide those threads could do with one? If there was such an invitation, did you accept graciously, recognise its parameters, offer your response to the question you'd been invited to answer, then leave politely? Or did you overstay your welcome?

That aside, I believe I've identified your problem. You've made a category error. Discussions about trans issues on the FWR boards are feminist discussions, amongst feminists, that happen to be about trans-related issues. They are not 'trans threads' on a 'trans-issues discussion' or even a 'chat' board. Do you see?

@MMM3 it always pleases me when someone checks the citations on a article.

I agree that a study published on tumblr doesn't really meet academic standards. However, this study is the 19th citation referenced in the article. The paragraph it is meant to support acknowledges the lack of research in this area. Unfortunately academic research into the subject of detransistioners is scarce, somebody was recently planning to do some research but the university pulled it. Coincidentally that's citation 20 in the main article supporting the same paragraph as c. 19

I disagree that the main article is set out as an academic paper - it's just a list of assertions with references. However the vast majority of the references look very interesting including house of commons reports, professional bodies eg GRIES, Prison Physiologists, CPS, legislation and what look like academic studies.

It's a really good list of sources and it's a shame you want to discount the entire debate on the basis of one dud citation. I'm planning to read through them all to check to see if they support the assertion in the article.

I rarely follow links from Mumsnet but after you highlighted the one citation I had to go and check as I'm getting irritated at the way research and references are being misused.

Anyway sorry for the derail and thanks to MMM3 for tweaking my interest.

It's a really, really tough gig being transgender. No one would chose it. transgender. No one would chose it.

But you see many of them do, DadJoke. Fetishistic cross dressers fall under Stonewall's umbrella. Transitioning for arousal purposes is A-OK. And these people make up the great majority of transwomen nowadays.

Some transition in middle age after decades as a conventional husband and father. They develop AGP (autogynaephilia) and typically try to involve their DWs, first with cross dressing and then later by more explicit means, means most of the women involved find seriously degrading. One example is a woman who was begged to pick up random men so her DH could serve them tea dressed as a French maid.

The people who have a really, really tough gig in those families are the wives and children. There's even a name for them: trans widows.

OK, some cites.

Gender Dysphoria on the NHS website "It's not a mental illness"

A CNN article which summarises the evidence on the effect of sex-segregated bathrooms.

Also, this article summarises one of the largest studies.

Private and safe unisex bathroom design.

Ultimately, DadJoke, what it boils down to is this:

Women on Mumsnet - whatever their position on trans issues - really don't give a single shiny shit what you think. And you don't like it. So you make a self-aggrandising thread which is the epitome of BEHOLD, A MAN HAS ARRIVED.

And even after more pages of women telling you that they really don't give much of a fuck what you think or where you post or consider you as important or relevant to their lives and thinking in any way - you are still unable to situate yourself accurately in our perception.

So y'know. Keep on keeping on. Your thoughts will still be largely irrelevant when it comes to us forming our own opinions.

YetAnotherSpartacus
Oh wow. You posted here because you wanted to divide and conquer and set women against women, didn't you? You also wanted validation. You were hoping that some women would get on their knees and suck your dick support you against those ebil feminists who were calling you out so you could use them against us and feel all righteous about yourself and your views. In other words, you tried to do what the patriarchy has always done. Hasn't worked so far.

Nope, I geniunely posted to on those threads with the intention to provide a useful contribution when questions were asked, and wanted to know if they were useful. On the basis of this response and many others, I will respect your views and not post on trans issues again outside this thread.

langcleg

That made me proper laugh out loud.