To post on trans issues in the Feminist Chat forum?

[DadJoke]

I've been posting a lot on trans issues over in feminist chat. I am keenly aware that it's primarily a women's forum, for women to discuss issues pertaining to their needs. I also know that the presence of men in women's spaces can undermine useful discussions and become "all about the men"

When I say women, I include transwomen. I know many of you don't, but that's not at all what this AIBU is about.

So, am I making a useful contribution to the debate, or undermining it?

Well as a “cis man” (although I would prefer to call you a non-transman to keep things fair) does it not seem like a safer option for all men-only public spaces to become unisex? Whereby any women entering that space will do so by choice?

Then there can be a women’s only space for only those vulva-owning women whom you so affectionately refer to as potential sexual partners, and a unisex space for everyone else. Problem solved?

Not strictly true nappa - diagnosis of autism has a history of being rather sexist and ignoring autistic women

I was almost hopeful then, with the 'no point in engaging further' comment.

But no. Still more.

Please make it stop someone.

Sorry to drag it up, but random fact, did you know that Males are about 4 times as likely as females to be born with Autism?

Do you mean diagnosed with autism rather than 'born with'?

Argggghhhh! Someone make him stop. Please!

Prawnofthepatriarchy

We have been here before but I will give it a go. Are you OK for me to use the word "cisgender" for the purposes of this definition?

multivac I don't know if you are a women (by my definition) or not
Can you not see how horribly rude (at best), and abusively oppressive (at worst) this comment is, addressed to another human being?

Clearly, you want to be the Good Guy here. Please, think about it.

The person, whose sex I don't know, and said they aren't trans asked me whether I thought they were a woman. I am really sorry if my answer was offensive, but I didn't have enough information to provide an answer. I said "by my definition" to acknowledge that most posters here don't share.

If someone told you they were not trans, didn't tell you what their sex was and asked you if they were a woman, what would you say? Seriously, I am reaching out here. I have no idea how I could have done better.

AynRandTheObjectivist

I have answered your question. I am not willing to discuss any further what exactly I would or wouldn't do with any particular women. I would happily kiss a transwoman or do any other stuff with her, I'd do with any other woman if I was into casual sex, although as it's never happened, I simply don't know. I've been married for a long time.

If you started a relationship with a woman, fell deeply in love and then discovered that you could never have PIV because of some injury she had sustained (but could do anything else with her), would you end that relationship? Yes or no? If not, why not?

If I was dating someone, I would establish pretty early on what their preferences were. If they didn''t match mine, then I would most likely end it. If my DW was no longer able to have sex for some reason, of course I'd stay with her.

None of this is relevant in any way to whether I think transwomen are women, and your obssession with my sex life becoming a bit prurient. Your user name makes me doubt your bona fides - Ayn Rand is an icon for the selfish right and entirely rejected feminism.

So, either acknowledge you believe I think transwomen are women, or I am done with you.

Ereshkigal I've always believed in the reality of sex, I just hadn't taken in that "assigned" makes certain assumptions about sex I don't agree with.

Or I am done with you? Is that a threat or a promise?

(Fingers crossed for the latter)

Sure, DadJoke, though I suspect that if you have to employ "cisgender" I'm going to get a pile of sexist stereotypes and general woo.

How is sex observed incorrectly?

Bowlofbabelfish
How can it be observed incorrectly? The infant is examined. If there is any doubt, there is a mechanism to delay reporting until genetic and physical testing is completed.

Under what circumstances do you believe sex is incorrectly observed at birth?

Literally only in the case of very rare intersex disorders which are not obvious on a cursory examination. I think we are agreeing.

Yeah, I was looking into it when my son was born with Autsim, I gobbled uo as much research as I could about it.

They haven’t fully discovered why it seems to affect more boys than girls, could be under diagnosis but they have dine some very recent studies and the results remain consistent

“There are a number of theories that might explain why more men and boys than women and girls get an autism diagnosis.

that there is a ‘female autism phenotype’, which doesn’t fit with the profile usually associated with men and boys on which assessment tools are usually based – leading to under diagnosis in women and girls. Diagnostic tests for women and girls should be modified accordingly.
that autism is an exaggeration of normal gender differences
the ‘extreme male brain’ theory of autism possibly caused by the effects of foetal testosterone on brain development
that genetic differences mean that girls are less likely to inherit autism than boys
that, overall, men and boys tend to be more susceptible to organic damage than women and girls (Rimland, 1964), whether through hereditary disease, acquired infection or other conditions. Since it is now almost universally accepted that there is an organic cause for autism, it is possible that boys are more likely to be autistic.
that women and girls are better at masking or camouflaging their difficulties
autism traits in girls are under-reported by teachers.”

So very realistically could be the differences in structural makeuo between males and females, failing that, it is just another thing that girls and women don’t get tested fairly for and another example of male privilege p.

Although apparently “Gender dysphoria” is higher in people with Austism, I didn’t know that.

www.autism.org.uk/about/what-is/gender.aspx

If someone told you they were not trans, didn't tell you what their sex was and asked you if they were a woman, what would you say? Seriously, I am reaching out here. I have no idea how I could have done better.

You could have said, "I don't know, you haven't told me your sex." But you won't say that, because before YOU will accept someone as a woman, she MUST accept a 'gender identity' as defined by YOU. The stance you hold makes it impossible for you to answer that question without being rude/abusive. Because your stance, I'm afraid, is fundamentally rude/abusive. That makes me very sad.

So, either acknowledge you believe I think transwomen are women, or I am done with you

'Trans'women' are women' is incoherent. It's possible to believe something incoherent but requires an act of faith in the impossible.

None of this is relevant in any way to whether I think transwomen are women, and your obssession with my sex life becoming a bit prurient.

I know it feeds your ego to think that I'm having dirty thoughts about you and your incredibly sexy talk about liking vulvas, but you will have to trust me - you are wrong on everything this one.

My questions are hugely relevant because they prove that you are happy to assert boundaries as to when transwomen stop being women (i.e., when it involves something that you imagine to be gay). But you are not happy for women-with-vulvas to make their own equivalent assertions. Even though we make them because we're being erased as a class and our safety is being compromised, and you're making them because 'eeuuurgh, gaaaaaay!'

As it happens, you are the third person on here to point out my username, think he's clever, and completely fail to grasp that I chose it because it's an absolute pisstake, as the quickest glimpse at more or less any post of mine will show. The other two were men as well. Make of that what you will.

Oh, and if she doesn't "accept" it, you will insist that she has it anyway. She cannot convince you otherwise, no matter what she says about this body, this mind, this existence of HERS.

It's like you hold the keys to the asylum, and you decide who is insane. And for those people then to insist on their sanity is simply taken as extra proof that they are insane. I've read horror novels using that plot line.

I suppose we all should just think ourself really lucky that a man has come along to explain just what being a woman is.

Now we can all do it right.

Literally only in the case of very rare intersex disorders which are not obvious on a cursory examination. I think we are agreeing.

A cursory examination (and examination by a medical professional to establish sex is never cursory) Of an infant with an intersex condition would show a range of things. It’s a myth that everyone intersex has ‘ambiguous’ genitalia or genitalia that absolutely look like one sex but are in fact the other.

If there is any doubt at all then reporting is delayed until conclusive physical / genetic investigation has taken place. The usual registration period can be extended in these circumstances. It’s inportant to pin down the exact cause as some conditions which can result in ambiguous genitalia can also include serious metabolic defects which need to be treated.

So one way or another - by visual examination and/or genetic examination, a child’s sex is observed at or shorty after birth.

Twenty years ago, there were some horrendous things done to children with intersex conditions. Now we have moved on.

I’ll also remind you that intersex is NOT transgender.

I think transwomen feel extremely uncomfortable as men so they assume that if they're not men they must be women. This is a fundamental error. "Woman" is not an empty bank of snow for men to piss on, DadJoke. It's a category defined by biology.

The transsexuals I've met in life and online normally acknowledge they're not women. But what about the transwomen who are not dysphoric, who keep their penis and want to use it for PIV sex? Far more of them now than the old school transsexuals. In what possible way are these women?

The whole male brain theory about autism is rubbish.

So, either acknowledge you believe I think transwomen are women, or I am done with you

Ya already said you don't think they are as you wouldn't have sex with someone who is a transwoman. Have you got heatstroke?

The whole male brain theory about autism is rubbish.

It is, and it wasn’t espoused from the molecular biology research side - it was baron-Cohen’s per theory I think? He has no genetics/biochem/mechanistic background.

The genetics view is that it’s probably caused by a complex interaction between a couple of dozen genes which create a ‘susceptibility level’ and then perhaps an environmental insult tips the balance. But really, we still don’t have much idea.
It’s vastly undiagnosed in women/girls, ironically probably in part due to differences in gender socialisation.,,

Cause, y'know, plasticity.

Fivelittleduckies

Well as a “cis man” (although I would prefer to call you a non-transman to keep things fair) does it not seem like a safer option for all men-only public spaces to become unisex? Whereby any women entering that space will do so by choice?

Then there can be a women’s only space for only those vulva-owning women whom you so affectionately refer to as potential sexual partners, and a unisex space for everyone else. Problem solved?

I think this is disproportionate and exclusionary to transwomen, it will also not get past the EA act. It would change the status quote from gender-based to sex-based. But I know that many women fear the presence of transwomen in their space, because they are male. The current law allows transwomen to use women's bathrooms, and I think that works. That said...

The best I've seen is properly private large unisex facilities (like our local swimming baths), but I know lots of women have problems with this. Honestly, I don't have a good answer.