To post on trans issues in the Feminist Chat forum?

[DadJoke]

I've been posting a lot on trans issues over in feminist chat. I am keenly aware that it's primarily a women's forum, for women to discuss issues pertaining to their needs. I also know that the presence of men in women's spaces can undermine useful discussions and become "all about the men"

When I say women, I include transwomen. I know many of you don't, but that's not at all what this AIBU is about.

So, am I making a useful contribution to the debate, or undermining it?

multivac

No, OP, you are being disingenuous. You said you didn't know whether the poster was a woman ACCORDING TO YOUR DEFINITION. And to decide according to your definition, she MUST accept a gender identity. You do not allow a woman to exist, unless her existence is boundaried by gender. Can you not see how terrible that is?

I actually didn't know whether the person was by any definition, because I didn't know whether they were male or female. I should have asked as you originally suggested. That would have given the same answer in any case.

Gendered oppression is a real thing but the concept of gender identity does not oppress by itself. It's neutral. You might get oppressed because of your gender identity, but it's not inherently oppressive. Societal expecations around sex, gender identity and gender expression are oppressive. So, if you think that the term "gender identity" oppresses women, then I'd argue that I'm not explaining it well enough. It's no more oppressive than me saying you have a sexuality.

And how easy it is to avoid, simply by saying 'transwomen are transwomen; they feel a disconnect between their sex and their own sense of gender identity'?

This denies that transwomen are women, and I don't agree with that, however offensive you find it.

@GardenGeek Fair enough. You might be right, I might not have the gonads for it, but I'll think about it.

At least the definition of cockwomble has been abundantly demonstrated.

Religious people believe they have souls. You believe you have a gender identity. Believe all you like, DadJoke. But neither you or religious people have any right to expect others share your beliefs.

Baume

#cockwomblesAREwombles

Dont talk about gendered oppression,
DadJoke Womenn are oppressed because of our biology. Gender is a tool of the patriarchy to enforce the hierarchy which places men on the top.

When I was raped, when my career was derailed by maternity leave, and all the times I've been sexually harassed and assaulted: these were not because of my gender. They were because of my sex. And I can't identify my way out of sex based oppression. As a PP said, the poor young transman raped by a taxi driver thought that once he knew their gender identity he'd stop. He didn't.

Bowlofbabelfish Intersex / female / male

That was a failed attempt to be inclusive - thank you for correcting me.

I based this on reading this article.

You might get oppressed because of your gender identity, but it's not inherently oppressive.

How would you be oppressed because of your gender identity? Gender presentation perhaps but gender identity??

This denies that transwomen are women, and I don't agree with that, however offensive you find it

And this:

A women, then is either a female person who is cisgender, or a male person who is transgender. All other terms are defined

denies that I, me, multivac, am a woman at all. It leaves me unarticulated.

Again, a question - can you see the difference between removing someone else's ability to talk meaningfully about their own biology, and creating a way for someone else to talk about their own identity?

Can you see that the latter allows coexistence, and the former is erasure, much as The Good Guys are being gaslighted into believing the reverse is true (another question, as you seem to like having them signposted for you)?

Prawnofthepatriarchy When I was raped, when my career was derailed by maternity leave, and all the times I've been sexually harassed and assaulted: these were not because of my gender. They were because of my sex. And I can't identify my way out of sex based oppression. As a PP said, the poor young transman raped by a taxi driver thought that once he knew their gender identity he'd stop. He didn't.

I am incredibly sorry to hear that - it sounds absolutely horrible and so many of my female friends have similar experiences. Sex-based oppression is fucking awful.

jellyfrizz

How would you be oppressed because of your gender identity? Gender presentation perhaps but gender identity??

Apply for certain jobs as a woman. Ask for a quote from a car dealer as a women. Express an opinion online as a women. Be included as a name in research paper as a women.

prawn

When I was told on the Monday that I was a stellar employee, given the highest possible rating and many thumps on the back, then on Wednesday I disclosed my pregnancy then on Friday I had my entire reporting line stripped from me, invites to talk about interesting projects were withdrawn and my manager was caught asking colleagues for examples of where I’d slipped up, or if I’d ever done anything they could ‘use’ to manage me out - that’s oppression by a patriarchal culture.

I’m currently on maternity leave, unable to walk more than about ten yards, I’ve been vomiting up to fifty times day for nine months. That’s biological disadvantage. I cannot identify out of this.

I cannot identify out of being five foot two and this miles weaker than 99% of men, so when in the past I’ve been sexually assaulted, my biology has directly disadvantaged me - I’d have liked to have identified as The Rock when that happened (more than once.) but I can’t, because that’s biology for you.

For a man to say he is a woman and tell me he’s oppressed after having all the advantages and NONE of the disadvantages of being a woman for forty years is to say the least, vexing. For him to then attempt to dismantle the spaces, structures and laws that give us the tiniest modicum of protection against All This Shit is so far beyond the pale I can’t express it.

It’s not ok.

multivac

Again, a question - can you see the difference between removing someone else's ability to talk meaningfully about their own biology, and creating a way for someone else to talk about their own identity?

I am not sure how I am preventing you from talking about your biology. You are of the female sex, as are transmen. That's your shared biological experience. How am I stopping you talking about it? How does this defnition stop you?

Can you see that the latter allows coexistence, and the former is erasure, much as The Good Guys are being gaslighted into believing the reverse is true (another question, as you seem to like having them signposted for you)?

I can honestly see why you would think so. You restrict "women" to AHF, and I include transwomen. I think gender identity is a real thing you don't. We both agree sex is real.

When you say "gender identity isn't a real thing" it sounds to me pretty much the same as "sexuality isn't a real thing." It doesn't make sense to me.

But I get why GC women are so upset at the idea of transwomen being accepted as women. They feel it undermines their very real struggle against sex-based oppression.

Dad joke - transwomen applying for jobs and not getting are not being oppressed because they are women. They may be being oppressed because they are trans. It is an entirely different thing to being oppressed because the employer has a set of beliefs about women (they get pregnant, they need mat leave, they want time off to look after sick kids, they aren’t as competent as men, they aren’t as strong as men, they are emotional and can’t take stress, blah blah blah).
A transwoman? It may we’ll be that they think ‘I don’t want to hire a man in a dress) but it sure as fuck isn’t because they think he is a woman.

I strongly object to men attempting to coopt misogyny on their own behalf, in an attempt to dilute the experiences of women. The solution is to destroy misogyny, not to claim that men are victims too.

I am off for now.

Thank you so much to everyone for engaging. I hope you found the responses and reactions from other posters worthwhile, even if my woeful efforts irritated you. It's been an incredible honour that you have humoured by ill-advised and self-aggrandising posts.

The most important thing I've learned to day is the concept of gender identity is the fundamental point of philosphical contention. Everything follows from that. Accept that gender identity is innate like sexuality, and you accept transwomen are women. Consider it to be a belief or delusion and you don't.

GardenGeek You are not pestering me. I very much value your opinions. I'll go into the beyond with my very small GC hat on.

How am I stopping you talking about it? How does this definition stop you?

Because I am not always given the option to use 'female'. Because other people very often dictate the terms of the discussion (especially male ones, in a position of power). Because sometimes I have to choose between 'man' and 'woman' - and your ideology makes that impossible.

When you say "gender identity isn't a real thing" it sounds to me pretty much the same as "sexuality isn't a real thing." It doesn't make sense to me

Then you seriously, seriously need to think harder (it's called empathy). Gender and sexuality exist in completely different realms of meaning. Forcing a 'gender identity' on someone is as wrong as, but utterly different from, denying someone's sexual orientation.

Thank you so much to everyone for engaging. I hope you found the responses and reactions from other posters worthwhile, even if my woeful efforts irritated you. It's been an incredible honour that you have humoured by ill-advised and self-aggrandising posts.

OH MY GOD

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