To post on trans issues in the Feminist Chat forum?

[DadJoke]

I've been posting a lot on trans issues over in feminist chat. I am keenly aware that it's primarily a women's forum, for women to discuss issues pertaining to their needs. I also know that the presence of men in women's spaces can undermine useful discussions and become "all about the men"

When I say women, I include transwomen. I know many of you don't, but that's not at all what this AIBU is about.

So, am I making a useful contribution to the debate, or undermining it?

Ya already said you don't think they are as you wouldn't have sex with someone who is a transwoman.

Well, in his usual weasel way, he's tried to find alternative ways of saying it. He would stay with his wife if she couldn't have PIV, BUT he wouldn't have a non PIV relationship with anyone else! He's not into casual sex, so we can't ask him how he would feel about that! And reminds us about civil rights, as if anyone on here thinks trans people don't deserve them.

Etc etc etc. However he slices it, it comes down to the fact that, when it comes to getting it on, he distinguishes between women and transwomen in exactly the same way as the rest of us do.

I think this is disproportionate and exclusionary to transwomen, it will also not get past the EA act. It would change the status quote from gender-based to sex-based.

No the status quo SHOULD be sex based NOW. That’s what the law allows for. It allows for exclusion of males in some circumstances and those include changing rooms.

It’s not disproportionate. If you’re arguing itvis you are arguing against ALL sex segregated spaces. There aren’t many - the ones we have are needed. That IS the proportionality

"Disproportionate" would be arguing that shops are sex segregated, not changing rooms.

Honestly, I don't have a good answer.

You got it.

Prawnofthepatriarchy Yep. For you to accept this definition you have to accept that gender identity is a real thing, which you don't. So possibly a non-starter. We've been round the houses on this a number of times.

OK - definition of a women, based on WHO, NHS and other human rights and medical bodies, tweaked by me. I won't go into depth on stuff you'll agree with.

Sex - female, male, intersex

Cisgender: means that your sex matches your gender identity.

Transgender: If your sex does not match your gender identity, then you are transgender.

Gender Identity: Gender identity is the sex that a person "identifies" with or feels themselves to be. While biological sex and gender identity are the same for most people, this isn't the case for everyone. If your gender identity matches your sex, you will not feel a sense of incongruence, and you are cisgendered. Much like sexuality, you can't point your finger at a location for it and it's innate. It's not a belief like a religion. [Here is where all the fighting between GC feminists and transactivists happens]

Gender expression is the physical manifestation of one’s gender identity. It's culturally conditioned and often oppressive. Some people's gender expression matches the societal norms for their gender. Some don't. Wearing pink doesn't make you a girl. Climbing trees doesn't make you a boy. You gender expression absolutely does not have to match your gender identity.

A women, then is either a female person who is cisgender, or a male person who is transgender

This definition excludes a bunch of other genders, but baby steps.

Dad, I’m married to a man. I gave birth to three children. I haven’t ever worn make up. I don’t wear skirts or dresses. I spent 16 years in military uniform firing weapons alongside men, sharing facilities, and doing exactly the same job (in some cases, doing it better, and being accused of cheating in fitness tests because I was faster). Despite this, my career was limited at the beginning (when I joined, a woman had to sign a contract saying that she would leave if she got married or pregnant) during (specific jobs only open to penises, being groped and held down by six men at my place of work and residence) and at the end (two of us up for promotion - the penis got the job because he had a wife and child to support, whereas I was single and so only had to support myself - yes - this was vocalized). I do not have a gender identity. I exist with a female body and society places rules and expectations on me because of my female body.
I thoroughly and completely object to your juvenile understanding of what constitutes womanhood, and your puerile convictions of a mismatch.
You are either a woman (born female, and subjected to social conditioning and expectations of such) or you are a man.
Being expected to live under those rules isn’t a choice. As a woman they are imposed onto you whether you like it or not. (And no, living by the rules doesn’t make you ‘cis’, and being pissed off by the rules and changing against them doesn’t make you trans. Still female. Still a woman. I spent years trying to access penis spaces - jobs, privilege - but was blocked at every turn. Despite being a proficient mountaineer, I was even refused a place on a mountain rescue team, because female. And meanwhile, Captain fucking Mannering pops on a frock and gets splashed on the front pages of the red tops for being ‘first woman x’)
Don’t dare to tell me that my gender identity matches my biology and I have cis privilege. Don’t fucking dare. I have no gender identity. My gender is imposed upon me by the gatekeepers who decide that my female biology renders me x,y and z.
My youngest daughter cried for a week when she started to menstruate. And sobbed again the next time. There is no opting out of this. Vulnerable girls desperately trying to avoid the penalties of womanhood being convinced they really can if they chop off their breasts and take T. It’s a travesty and you are culpable by supporting the fiction that sex change is possible. And meanwhile, there are adult men creeping women’s toilets and rummaging in the sanitary bins for used pads, and tucking them round their penises so they can enjoy the sensation of someone else’s menstrual blood in their pants.
And still the woke bros don’t get it.
So I dry my daughter’s tears and keep fighting to keep the #girlslikeus (yeah, have a good look at that hashtag) out of women’s spaces.
Just fuck if with your ‘identity’ bullshit. Womanhood is not an identity.

If someone told you they were not trans, didn't tell you what their sex was and asked you if they were a woman, what would you say? Seriously, I am reaching out here. I have no idea how I could have done better.

You could have said, "I don't know, you haven't told me your sex." But you won't say that, because before YOU will accept someone as a woman, she MUST accept a 'gender identity' as defined by YOU. The stance you hold makes it impossible for you to answer that question without being rude/abusive. Because your stance, I'm afraid, is fundamentally rude/abusive. That makes me very sad.

Oh, and if she doesn't "accept" it, you will insist that she has it anyway. She cannot convince you otherwise, no matter what she says about this body, this mind, this existence of HERS.

It's like you hold the keys to the asylum, and you decide who is insane. And for those people then to insist on their sanity is simply taken as extra proof that they are insane. I've read horror novels using that plot line.

(I'm not sure if you missed these comments earlier, or simply have your head in the sand?)

Bowlofbabelfish

No the status quo SHOULD be sex based NOW. That’s what the law allows for. It allows for exclusion of males in some circumstances and those include changing rooms.

A third space solution wouldn's support this though, would it?

It’s not disproportionate. If you’re arguing itvis you are arguing against ALL sex segregated spaces. There aren’t many - the ones we have are needed. That IS the proportionality

I am absolutely not arguing against sex segrated spaces. I thought we were specifically discussing public bathrooms. I agree they are required under certain circumstances. I think that places where people are naked should allow absolute privacy, regardless of sex or gender, and I think that is a better solution than sex segregation.

As I expected, a dismal attempt at a definition from DadJoke. Did you not notice that your definition doesn't define woman? You fell straight into the Snargle trap.

And, of course, it fails to include people like me. I am a woman. I have grown two miniature people in my belly but am not cisgender. I do not collude with or identify with my oppression.

I DO NOT HAVE A GENDER IDENTITY!

Though I don't expect even shouting will help with your missing listening skills.

multivac Thank you! Honestly, I said I didn't have enough information, because I thought asking what sex the poster was was intrusive, or they might have shared it. Literally, "what is your sex" is the information I needed to know. If I was a transwoman and I asked you "do you think I am a woman" you'd answer no, I imagine, but it woulod be fair enough, because she asked!

I didn't answer earlier because you didn't ask me a question, but I read your post.

No, OP, you are being disingenuous. You said you didn't know whether the poster was a woman ACCORDING TO YOUR DEFINITION. And to decide according to your definition, she MUST accept a gender identity. You do not allow a woman to exist, unless her existence is boundaried by gender. Can you not see how terrible that is?

And how easy it is to avoid, simply by saying 'transwomen are transwomen; they feel a disconnect between their sex and their own sense of gender identity'?

^^there are two questions there, by the way. Cheers.

Prawnofthepatriarchy

You might have missed this:
A women, then is either a female person who is cisgender, or a male person who is transgender. All other terms are defined.

It's a non-circular definition, but requires you to accept that everyone has gender identity, which I know you don't, and I've acknowledge that many times. You asked me to define it, I warned you wouldn't like it, and it's a bit unfair to then ream me out for disagreeing with you.

I really wish I could find a better word than identity.

Dadjoke: cisgender is an incoherence. Why are you ignoring this? If sex is not defined by reproductive role, then the body has no 'female' or 'male' quality for the 'gender identity' to match.

How many times do you need to be told?

Dad - any time I point out that I do not identify as cis as I do not believe I have a gender identity, neurotypical transactivists pop up and say "oh well that's cause yours matches your body; you'd know if you didn't have it - it leads to the feeling of being uncomfortable in your own skin".
And I'm like "check your privilege, dude."

Anywho.

A women, then is either a female person who is cisgender, or a male person who is transgender. All other terms are defined.

That’s not a coherent or consistent definition.

How about PINV sex? (Penis In Neo Vagina)

Sex - female, male, intersex

No. You are profoundy misunderstanding the concept of intersex

Intersex is a crap word, let’s be honest. It implies a sort of middle ground when that is not actually true. dadjoke you need to understand that intersex (or people with DSD, disorder of sexual development) are NOT a ‘halfway thing.’ They have a variety of developmental issues that do things like make them sterile in some cases, or missing a vagina for example, or have abnormalities of metabolism or reproductive development.

What’s critical to understand is that all those people are male or female. they are not some kind of unknowable middle ground. The vast majority are classable at birth. A few need genetic testing to make sure - they are not a third sex. They are not proof there’s a spectrum of sex. They are just them.

So no, there is NOT male, female and intersex. There is male and female and all intersex people can be categorised into one of those two.

Didn't miss it, DadJoke. I said it was _dismal-. It is. It's circular. It still doesn't define the word woman. It does include a side order of gender woo.

You're really getting on my tits now. My consolation is all the lurkers reading all your BS and the clear, logical posts of your opponents.

Actually I take back what I said on my previous post, you are making a useful contribution. I think this debate is not well known yet in the mainstream and you posting in here draws attention to it. Your posts are great for peak transing.

@GardenGeek and I am not sitting here answering or reading a single other fucking post off you. Why the fuck should I, when you cba to go to twitter because your 'above' twitter. Oh I cant go there they have no nuance. EXACTLYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am not expecting you to read a single thing I've written. I misunderstood your intent. I thought you wanted me to engage with trans advocates in the same (utterly unsucessful) way I've engaged with GC feminists here rather than randos on Twitter. I don't use Twitter much, but it's to be a platform where you just post stuff into void. It's not because I CBA.

Just because you don't use twitter doesnt mean loads of girls and women dont either. And that they are being bullied, harassed and intimidated for stating simple sentences even unknowingly about trans issues such as 'women bear children' or 'females have periods' etc.

This is all true. What you really want then, is not for me to engage, but just to experience the abuse they get? I am pretty sure I'll get similar abuse on a forum which allows longer posts.

But just to be sure GG, it's Twitter or GTFO?

It's a non-circular definition, but requires you to accept that everyone has gender identity, which I know you don't, and I've acknowledge that many times.

What about agender non-binary people?

gender.wikia.com/wiki/Agender

Do you think these people don't exist? Or is it only okay to not have a gender identity if we express not having it in the terms used by proponents of gender ideology?

Well, I'll go to the foot of our stairs. What did I say yesterday? If I come back tomorrow, this utter cockwomble will still be here, still be talking shit, still getting his arse handed to him and still won't consider himself to be a common-or-garden ignorant, sexist man inserting himself into women's space and conversation and feeling entitled to do it.

As I said yesterday, OP: this is why we want single sex spaces. To get the fuck away from the penis and its fucking endless fucking entitlement. Doesn't matter what "gender" that penis considers itself to be.