To wonder what people mean when they say "Oh, I wish they'd just get ON with Brexit!"

[BertrandRussell]

Because I have no idea how they would do that.

From my POV I’m sick of the entire thing and want over to see where we land and how we go from there.

I’m a remainer.

I don’t ‘heart’ Europe in any way. I don’t feel at all European but rather global (I don’t feel the EU ie global in any sense).

But to me it was more it’s a big bad world and you need to be part of something. I don’t think the Eu governance is up for reform (it’s been tried) so it is what it is. Also the father of my dc is an Eu national and it’s essential that he stay by his DC.

I want to know what the government is planning re brexit.

I think the govt would quite like to know this too. The fact that they don;t have a plan is the reason why we are in this situation. And it is why we may blunder into a no dela disaster scenario. Some want that by design (Jacob Reese Mogg and the ERG who will make a killing in the fire sale of British assets - and whose money is stored offshore) but it is far more likely incompetence that will take us there.

They haven't got their act together in two years - how on earth can anyone expect them to get it together in the next 8 moths? Their summer holidays start in a couple of weeks ffs!

Stop waiting for a plan that isn't coming. Start getting angry.

Byline journalist James Patrick puts it this way on how just food related things will go:

Because weekly shops will be pinched and treats will be first to go, it’ll be coffee shops and restaurants firsts. Then weekly shops. All of this eats local jobs adding to the spiral, then comes the knock on as the shops but less in, and so on. But, unlike 2008, Brexit is forever

And.
House of Commons has passed the EU Withdrawal Bill which means that the government can pass laws without MPs' votes. Like a dictatorship. We get no say from now on.

And
EU will not want a country like this, in this state, back in its union.
We asked in 1961 to join, and only were allowed in in 1973.

It's over, and it is not going to be pretty.

I am sure you all know by now that JRM has moved part of his company to Dublin, just in case Brexit might affect his clients. And of course his income from this.

You could not make this up.

Well because we can't control our immigration policy

This is a lie.

We are not a part of schengen - our borders are controlled. We know which EU citizens enter this country because they come through border control to get here.
'Freedom of movement' does not actually mean an EU citizen has the right to rock up to any EU country and start demanding hand outs.
It is written into EU law - that a country may remove any EU citizen if they are not proven to be self sufficient (i.e working and paying tax - or I suppose independently wealthy/ receiving a pension) after 6 months.
I believe both France and the Netherlands takes advantage of these laws and deports EU non-national citizens who end up living off the state for more than a few months. It is British govt policy not to enact these laws. This is because it is such a minescule problem that the money we lost to paying benefits to EU citizens was less than the cost of setting up a department to evict them would be.

Immigration is incredibly beneficial and necessary for this country - especially with our ageing population and we have always had control of our own immigration policy

blink is lying.

I don't remember the UK as a whole voting to be bound by that - but maybe we did.

You're either very poorly educated or entirely goady. Either way, I agree with Pretzels; with that comment you've lost all credibility in all your other assertions,

In any case, we can always change our mind over time once decisions have been implemented.

No one has changed their mind on the GFA - except an even higher majority supporting it. Whereas the narrow majority for Brexit it certainly not increasing...

I am pretty sure the UK decided to take control of it's borders.

The only refendum in which our border with the EU was on the ballot was the GFA; we voted to open the border, develop all-Ireland infrastructure and processes (so if someone has a heart attack they're taken to the nearest hospital by the nearest ambulance, not the one on "their" part of Ireland), and award the freedom of choice over British or Irish identity to everyone born in NI.
It's a wonderful thing that ended the worst of the oppression of the Catholic minority and most of the sectarian violence from the extremes of both communities. It still commands emphatic support and the fact that it stops the UK "being like Canada" was explained multiple times in the run up to the referendum. The fact that it was overshadowed by lies on a bus is not the fault of the people of NI and we will not lose our hard won freedoms or put up with a border being (once again) unwillingly enforced on us by the English.
Even Theresa May understand that now, so it can't be too hard to get, once it's sunk in.

we can't control where our taxes are spent or the rate of taxes

taxation is a domestic matter. Not an EU one. We send less than 1% of our GDP to the EU and we get a rebate on that!) We have always had the power to set our own taxes and decide how to spend them.
We are not spending all our taxes on dealing with immigration problems (because immigration as a whole has a positive effect on our economy and the vast vast vast majority of immigrants pay taxes too)

This is another lie.

To add to what Icantreachthepretzels just said, the other day it was announced that the EU will be working to amend freedom of movement rules to stop local wages being undercut post brexit. So why didn't they do it before the referendum and make Britain happy? Because the fucking UK government have been using their veto to block it.

Yes you heard that right.

we can't change the laws that affect the internals of the UK to what we want them to be,
Parliamentary law is sovereign in Britain. Is, was and without Brexit always would be. (now as a pp has pointed out, a law has been passed that allows the govt to pass laws as a dictatorship.)

Any laws that came from the EU - The British parliament had to vote to accept them and write them into British law. Because Parliament is sovereign

Of the laws coming from the EU - Britain had a say in the Eu as to what those laws were. We had MEPS (elected by us) who helped draft, write and then vote on these laws. They could make ammendents. They could vote to block them Of all the laws the EU passed, Britain's MEPS voted for over 90% of them. And another %age they abstained from.

And once the MEPS (including ours) decided on something - it would go back to our Parliament -who would vote on it

Nothing was forced on us from above. We always had control of what laws we adopted. We were a force in pushing through laws that suited ourselves. And we always always retained sovereignty.

This is yet another lie.

Somerville,

Am reluctant to call out trolls or whatever. But I agree with you. Sad isn't it that relatively few understand the history or get the GFA, awful really.

Brexit: Britain facing 'state of emergency' if no deal reached, Dominic Grieve warns

Ordinary life will grind to a halt. That is the extent to which our lives are inter-meshed with the lives of our European partners,' former attorney general says

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-latest-eu-uk-dominic-greave-jacob-rees-mogg-cbi-a8443241.html

The "Irish issue" is just an excuse, it was known in 2016 we voted to take control of the borders and most people do not prioritise it as a major concern compared to other aspects

What Somerville said.

Icantreachthepretzels

As you are calling me a liar, it would be worth going through the argument you made.

Firstly, please confirm how we know each and every person that crosses into the UK through Ireland? How exactly on the Irish to UK border are all non-Irish citizens controlled?

Secondly, to be in control of the policy means we can alter the policy - not just down top EU levels, but to anything we want. So if we want to choose to no longer have any immigration for a particular country, working or not, that is the ability too set policy. If we choose to exclude after 1 week that is control.

We may be able to set a stricter policy than we have now, but that is not the same thing.

Blink is not lying, and so I am guessing an apology is on the way…

Secondly, the EU does not allow us to set arbitrary VAT rates, and this is a tax.

Again Blink is not lying, and so a second apology should be on its way.

And we always always retained sovereignty.

As illustrated by the fact we in this bloody mess now. We have the absolute sovereign power to walk away even if it fucks up the entire country for generations to come.

So nothing about creating and cementing peace after WW2. The ECSC was founded in 1951; NATO was founded in 1949, The latter has kept the peace.

we can't support industries we want to encourage,

Yes we can. And more to the point - the EU helps prop up some industries with funding - and our access to the single market means that non EU countries place their businesses and industries here so they can easily access all of Europe (Nissan for a start)

This line is utter bullshit. It is a lie. But it is an even bullshittier lie than the other ones blink has espoused. It's just nonsense.

and we have a different mindset as a country to most other European countries because of being an island state that takes greater risks and is more outward facing.

How on earth can a country that has just voted to isolate itself and turn its back on its nearest neighbours (and trade is largely a matter of geography - not ideology) be classed as 'more outwards facing'?

Germany does more trade with countries outside of the EU than we do.
Ireland has just starting trading shitloads of beef to China. They also make most of the computer chips in the world... they go all over. (oh yeah... I just glanced at a map holy shit Ireland is and Island too!)

And our 'mindset' has got fuck all to do with the future of our economic prosperity. Most trade is done with your nearest neighbours. All countries, across the globe, are getting into trading blocs with their closest neighbours. Only Britain has decided to go it alone... with no one left to trade with because everyone else is trading with their neighbours.

But the EU has many excellent FTA with countries all over the world - we will lose all of them when we brexit and start again at day zero. Our desperation will mean any terms anyone is inclined to offer us will not favour us.

But Peace and prosperity and democracy are values that everyone in Europe, bar the brexiteers and their various counterparts in other countries, share.
The EU isn't about whether you like croissants or David Hasslehof. The whole of Europe is massively diverse - and we are a tiny part of that. The French do not want to be German anymore than we do. And vice versa. But our values, and our ways of life mean that we have more that unites us than divides us.

blink has told lies throughout the whole thread. They have disregarded the rights, safety and identity of one of our home nations - and suggested we rip up a peace treaty (for part of our own country) in order to brexit. I really hope there is no one left who thinks blink is coming across as 'knowledgeable'.
Goady, dishonest, and ignorant: Yes. Knowledgeable: No.

poster Icantreachthepretzels

You really have no clue at all. Not a single EU regulation requires the British Parliament to enact it. In Factortame, the judge stated:

"The Treaty of Rome is the supreme law of this country, taking precedence over Acts of Parliament. Our entry into the Community meant that (subject to our undoubted but probably theoretical right to withdraw from the Community altogether) Parliament surrendered its sovereign right to legislate contrary to the Treaty on the matters of social and economic policy which it regulated."

Firstly, please confirm how we know each and every person that crosses into the UK through Ireland?

Ireland is also not a part of schengen. Anyone who enters Ireland will be recorded at their borders. Not needing a passport between here and Ireland actually predates our entry into the EU - and is the CTA. Certainly, no one has out loud suggested that the CTA be disbanded. TRherefore leaving the EU will solve nothing.
Ireland might join schengen though (if they are stuck with a hard border, why the hell not. Or considering people's cavalier disregard for the GFA we may see a untied Ireland much quicker than expected) and then anyone can enter Ireland from the Eu without them checking passports... and then move onto Britain. Bit of an own goal really.

Secondly, to be in control of the policy means we can alter the policy - not just down top EU levels, but to anything we want. So if we want to choose to no longer have any immigration for a particular country, working or not, that is the ability too set policy. If we choose to exclude after 1 week that is control

Np. Sorry in a global world - if you want to deal with other countries (and we have to - we are not self sufficient for food) there are certain rules we will always have to follow - agreed between the two parties. Any breaking of those rules will affect your standing in the rest of the world. We are currently in the EU and have agreed to the rules (fuck - we wrote a ton of them!) Our control comes from debating, writing, voting on and then passing into our own law these rules. The fact that other countries share them takes nothing from us.

If you don;t know you are lying ... then I have massively overestimated your intelligence.

here you go blink

www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/sovereignty/

Secondly, the EU does not allow us to set arbitrary VAT rates, and this is a tax.

The minimum VAT according to the EU is 15%. Our VAT is 20%. Considering we are taxing at a higher rate than we have to - why is this a problem? Are you really so naive to think that VAT would go down or disappear if we weren't in the EU...when we chose to keep it higher than strictly necessary?

Blink: we can't control tax
me: yes we can
Blink: well - fine we can set income tax, and council tax and inheritance tax and stamp duty and National Insurance BUT we can't unilaterally do away with sales tax.
me: was never going to happen anyway.

Anymore turds of wisdom you need polishing.

Hang on.

We adore Brexit because we need to Control Our Borders (with specific reference made above to knowing "each and every person" that crosses into the UK through the Irish border) and Enforce Our Own Standards and Laws.

Leaving aside, as already said, that there's no passport checks in the CTA anyway so if we were concerned about knowing every person passing through that border, we're tilting at the wrong windmill...

Yet when questions are raised about the implications of Brexit for the GFA, we get told that we don't need a real border between the UK and Ireland, that it's the big mean bullying EU that are going to cause the trouble by forcing us to have a hard border when " whyever would we want a border there?"

And then when questions are raised about severe delays for imports coming in through the ports leading to food shortages or messing up JIT manufacturing, we get told that we can simply wave all the lorries through without knowing who or what is on board, because it's the big mean EU imposing nasty tariffs or regulations or whatnot "whyever would we need to check compliance of imports or whether anybody is hiding in them at customs?".

We’ve been enmeshed with the EU for decades. Are these people unaware of the sheer amount of technologies, businesses, institutions and laws that have developed in that time? Every one needs to be unravelled.

So depressing and it has been proven that you can throw facts at these Brexiters but they just don’t understand them preferring slogans like “taking back our borders”. The Brexit vote was like asking 5 year olds to vote because so many people really didn’t understand more of whats going on than a 5 year old. Once it got a bit complicated or took too long, it was back to Love Island because they were “bored by it now”. Such a disaster!

My mother voted leave because she thought it would mean she’d get her cataract operation done quicker. That fucking, fucking, bus. I could spit when I think of the mess this is going to make. Leavers have had two tears to convince remainers why leaving is a good thing. They’ve had two years to articulate their vision, but beyond some vague waffle about sovereignty and Boris getting a new yacht there has not nothing. There are no benefits to Brexit. Even Priti Patel said as much in a tweet yesterday - we know it’s going to be harmful, even leavers know it’s going to be harmful, but we’re stuck with this mess because of a marginal win on an advisory referendum with politicians grimly determined to carry out the will of less than a third of the people even though they know it is stupid. Brexiters always say they knew what they were voting for and my mum voted for a shorter waiting time for her cataract operation.