To wonder what people mean when they say "Oh, I wish they'd just get ON with Brexit!"

[BertrandRussell]

Because I have no idea how they would do that.

Blink, maybe you might tell us what the EU is about so. Since we are so undereducated compared to yourself.

By your posts shall you know them. I'm not convinced that you have a clue at all.

To be fair on the government, as long as the door is completely left open to tearing up the agreement at a future point if it doesn't suit us, it might not be a bad staging post.

I'd personally only agree through if we remove any financial payment and backstop. When you leave an organisation as a shareholder you get to sell the share on for it's value, but don't pay into it anymore or agree to give another shareholder over what you invest in next. It's not a divorce, we are just selling our shares in a club.

I have no idea and I wish it could be stopped because the 1950s idyll expected by Brexit voters - white people, red phone boxes, blue passports, a dixon of dock green on every high st and a knighthood for bloody farage - is fortunately out of reach' . The reality is pretty awful which is why no one in government is willing to express it. We have royally screwed ourselves.

keyboardkate, not sure why you're bing like that. I was asked why I was pro-brexit and I explained why. Rather than listening to politicians lie, its sometimes better to read the actual documents.

The EU compared to the EC was primarily about common foreign policy and judicial cooperation, i.e. matters for a state rather than anything about trade. This was not what people agreed to in 1975, and has been the fundamental problem ever since.The UK didn't really ever feel happy about this.

As you are being so sarky, I assume you have read TEU, and so already are fully aware of this. As I said previously, most people do not recognise the never ending erosion of local laws. You will also appreciate in all EU areas of control you can never vote for anyone with the power to initiate a policy - no-one elected in the EU parliament can do that, it's just an illusion of supra-national democracy.

Why not just say we'll just have the same relationship as Canada did to the EU in 2010, and start there.

Canada doesn't have a land border with the EU. The UK does. And what's more, the UK had already heard the will of the people was to have that border completely open, to the point that it is now invisible, alongside developing huge amounts of all-Ireland infrastructure. Have you heard the "clever" idea for providing power for the north of Ireland in a no-deal scenario - since that area shares ROI electricity supply? Barges with generators.

With the likes of Mr Trump, Putin, N korea and the gradual but firm rise of China, now is not a good time to leave the EU. If it had been started as a project say 30 years ago and actually left 20 years ago, armed with a plan, it would have been possible.
Lawyers from up to 28 countries have been putting the EU together for 50+ years, to think this can be 'undone' in a few weeks (as the UK Gov have squandered the last 2 years) is sheer lunacy.
Perhaps not discussed much but the EU will be doing all it can to prevent ISIS and other terrorist organisations getting a good grip in Europe. That alone is worth the membership 'fee'.

Regarding EASA, it was not established until 2003. The UK CAA arguably was the strongest aviation safety regulator in the entire EU, and due to EASA some safety standards have been lowered in the UK.

Agreed we should have spent the time putting back the CAA as it once was. Not difficult, but just not done because the government didn't really want to leave.

Not sure if it is still true but the UK mainland used to 'buy' a significant amount of electricity from France, meaning cables under the channel rather than just the electric companies.

Blink,

You appear to be worried by anyone nay saying your points. That is fine, but we are all entitled to our opinions. You really have to deal with it and rebut comprehensively. All you are doing is quietly referring to obscure wordy documents (which I have read btw).

Many just want the bullet points.

There is nothing in what I have read/know that points me in the direction of going it alone anymore.

There is comfort in a group. Particularly thinking of Trump and Putin here, and if you are as knowledgeable as you say you are, well, there is no point in being insular and isolationist these days is there?

Somerville

I don't remember the UK as a whole voting to be bound by that - but maybe we did. In any case, we can always change our mind over time once decisions have been implemented. I am pretty sure the UK decided to take control of it's borders.

Canada manages to have a border with the USA, but doesn't need political integration. Seems to work after all.

Interestingly the UK also receives power from France, and has done since 1961. It seems it's possible outside of the EU for a wire to carry current! Physical law has not bowed down yet.

Grant ball EU citizens in UK 1 year visa to apply for a new visa as per any other countries citizens

What does that even mean? Are you including lawfully settled EU citizens in this? Do you have any idea how Brexit is already affecting thousands of families, including those with British children?

Just to amplify what a couple of people said a few pages back. It's not over until it's over - and that is 30th March 2019 at the earliest (article 50 could be extended if the EU allowed it).
What is happening is a disaster - whether you like the idea of brexit or not - what we are getting will substantially damage the economy, your lives and your children's futures.
There is nothing 'good' about a govt starting to stockpile food or making plans to ship generators to NI because their power supply comes from south of the border and may be cut off post brexit. There is nothing good about a genuine possibility of a reignitement of civil war in the UK (I mean the troubles ... not the roundheads and the cavaliers).

And we are stumbling towards 'no deal' which is crashing out. That means no planes can fly in or out. That means ports blocked so food can't get through (and we can't just wave it through that would break WTO rules - the rules the brexiteers love so much). And even if we removed all customs checks for everywhere in the world - that would not be reciprocal... so our exports would be hammered. Plus- what on earth is stashed in the lorries we're not checking? Our standards of safety for food and products will no longer apply outside of Britain - so anyone who exports anywhere else will not be able to sell in international markets. Both big and small businesses will be hammered.
We really would descend into chaos within days.

Even avoiding that - we are still losing money, rights, safety (no longer working in tandem with european anti terrorist agencies) and access to radioactive materials to treat cancer patients.
I do not believe anyone voted for any of that. No matter how noble their reasons for voting brexit.

But the good news is It's not too late

It isn't over until it's over - and we can tell this shower in charge that we do not like what they have failed to accomplished.

www.peoples-vote.uk/petition

This is a petition for a peoples vote. It is not a second referendum
It is requesting that we be allowed to look at the final deal the govt manage to achieve or not and decide if it is good enough for our country and our futures.
Please sign.

If you want to stay up to date with Brexit news then MN really is the best place - join the discussion here:

Current Westminsterenders thread

There are tonnes of knowledgeable posters who provide loads of links that erxplain what the hell is going on. If you haven't visited the brexit board before - and are starting to get worried - that is the place to go!

BUt for goodness sake sign that petition! Even if you voted leave you deserve a say on what leave looks like

keyboardkate

I'm not worried, but if you ask a question I'll answer it. I'm expressing guy opinion, but you're being rude and sarcastic. If you've read the documents, why did you ask me to tell you what the EU was about?

The reason generally foreign independent is to be master of your own destiny rather than be mediocre in a group. Its good to cooperate where there is agreement, but there is no reason for the UK to impose its will on others, or others to do that to the UK.

Do you believe that you should be able to vote for your political representative to change the taxation on goods such as tampons? If yes, then you have one reason - if not, then it doesn't matter to you. Both views should be fine - as a country we chose it did matter.

blink I think some people knew what the effects might be. And some people believed the ' cake and eat it' position. Maybe a lot of people. If we crash out then we aren't immediately successful then I worry that people will be very disolusioned.
We aren't (because of our history with Europe) Australia or Canada...we have been more economically connected and disconnecting may well cause pain. And for me we don't seen in a very strong place to weather any potential economic storm..

I don't remember the UK as a whole voting to be bound by that - but maybe we did. In any case, we can always change our mind over time once decisions have been implemented. I am pretty sure the UK decided to take control of it's borders.

The ignorance is astounding. But I will leave it to Somerville to school you. She is far more knowledgeable in this than me - having fucking lived it.

I hope there is no one else out there who thinks blink sounds 'knowledgeable' as one naive pp put it. They are quite literally talking out of their arse whilst advocating that the UK rip up an international peace treaty - which ended a bloody decades long civil war - which is held by the UN... because they don;t remember the whole of the UK signing up to it. Newsflash: it wasn't about the whole of the UK ... but I think it got something like above 90% voting for it across the entire Island of Ireland.

Welching on international agreements is not a good look when you are hoping to strike new partnerships across the world.

...and then there is the human cost.

Disaster in the making is so right.

Brexiteers will not agree, but their only argument is "getting back control" Of what?

Honestly. As someone who sees both sides I have had two years to witness the so called progress. And.... nada, will be Norway style.

Why the F not just stay in. It's not as if we have zillions of oil revenue like Norway or anything.

And, I am sorry to say that my friends living in the EU either don't give a damn, or are laughing at the UK's incompetence in all this. But generally they don't care. Because they will still be EU members and the Uk will have to look after itself post Brexit.

I hope a mutual solution will be found. But UK will not have a more favourable agreement than existing EU members, no way José.

I don't think anyone knows how we sort this out. The EU has no interest in making this easy for us as we all knew. This last 18 months has been a huge waste of time and energy. Whether any of the leave voters will get what they want I don't know.

As a remainer I have no interest in it anymore. It is a mess

bestcatintheworld

Yee, they are granted that status because of our membership. If nothing else happens, they no longer have such a right when the 1972 act is repealed. The UK can choose at any time to change its immigration laws for non-citizens - as can other countries.

There would be no reason for the UK to exclude anyone who is substantially economically active and contributes more than their family costs the state.

@Cornishclio

The EU has no obligation to make anything easier for ANY country leaving does it?

That is the Hubristic arrogance of the UK again, no one can live without us.

Of course they can and they will.

If you leave that is your choice. Bye Bye.

But UK will not have a more favourable agreement than existing EU members, no way José.

Depends on what you value. Simply having 'no deal' and leaving the ECJ would be better than the EU deal imo. Others clearly will value other aspects - but for many of us, the existing EU deal was worse than no deal, and is why we voted to leave.

As a remainer I have no interest in it anymore. It is a mess

But surely you'll be interested when we crash out - and there's nothing to eat?
I have asthma - I'll be sure as hell interested when it turns out i can no longer get inhalers. I hope no one else here requires ongoing medication. Or that anyone they love does.

Because now is the exact time to get interested.
Don;t be disinterested - be angry.

www.peoples-vote.uk/petition

seriously - it takes less than 30 seconds to sign.

I'm a remainer but even I've said that they should just get on with brexit now. What I mean when I say it, is that I want to know what the government is planning re brexit. What is the end goal. How will it be achieved, any areas for compromise or negotiate.

The whole world is laughing at our incompence and hubris.

But who the F knows what will happen anymore.

So unnecessary IMV because the most we will achieve is a Norway style deal anyway. All four freedoms, and no input into decisions in Brussels.

Yippee. We will be out, but in.

keyboardkate: Why the F not just stay in?

Well because we can't control our immigration policy, we can't control where our taxes are spent or the rate of taxes, we can't change the laws that affect the internals of the UK to what we want them to be, we can't support industries we want to encourage, and we have a different mindset as a country to most other European countries because of being an island state that takes greater risks and is more outward facing.

I understand your frustration, as is mine, but the reasons are pretty obvious and were all explained in 2016. You may disagree, but they are well known.

The "Irish issue" is just an excuse, it was known in 2016 we voted to take control of the borders and most people do not prioritise it as a major concern compared to other aspects.

Free movement EU immigration policy was NEVER controlled, and the incumbent there in the Home Office is now the PM.

Who now wants to control our borders.

Is it any wonder people are so FN sceptical.