To think that the way people treat male toddlers....

[Yellowcrocodile]

Is what leads to male entitlement in society?

Name changed for this as potentially identifying.

So I have a 2 year old DD and am currently pregnant with a boy.

Spent the morning at a playgroup in a naice area. I’ve come home feeling furious by the behaviour of some of the children and their parents. Basically there were a few boys 3+ who absolutely ran riot, screaming, running, shouting, snatching and hitting, and generally causing chaos. Their parents just smiled indulgently, and made comments like ‘boys have so much more energy’. None of them told their children off, apologised to anyone or acknowledged that their children were badly misbehaving.

It’s like this every fucking week. My daughter has her naughty moments too, snatches, tantrums etc, but as soon as she starts I tell her off (calmly), explain why she can’t do xyz, and say we are leaving if she carries on. She generally responds and behaves herself, and I’m very embarrassed if she doesn’t, as I have high expectations of her. Almost all of the other girls and half of the boys are the same, not perfect little angels but parented appropriatley and respond to boundaries.

It’s making me worried that when I have my son:
a. He’ll be a horrible little shit
b. I’m turn into one of the terrible parents who attribute his poor behaviour to ‘being boisterous’ or ‘naturally having more energy’

These children are never told off, and their sense of entitlement is growing by the day. This is probably hormones talking, but I can completely see how some men end up not doing any housework, feeling entitled to the best of everything, and go around raping and murdering people, as they are told from an early age that any behaviour is fine as they ‘have more energy’ and they just aren’t held to normal standards of behaviour.

Also, they all seem to be call very boring middle class names like william, Samuel and Benjamin, don’t know what that’s about? The children with names that would raise a mumsnet eyebrow are much better behaved.

So, AIBU to blame toxic masculinity and male entitlement on the tolerance we have for poor behaviour from boys in childhood?!

Or are hormones making me crazy...

I’m determined not to treat my son any differently to my daughter for both of their sakes, but feel really sad about the society they will both be growing up in

My daughter had her bottom slapped by a bit at school. They are in year 1. I'm still cross with myself that I didn't go and speak to the school.

Yes, and when I was at primary school I remember a group of girls (not including me I hasten to add) cornering a boy in the playground, pulling down his trousers and laughing at his penis.

Haha it’s not only boys. At my play group we have a few girls that behave awfully. Yesterday we went and one girl who I’m sure was between 7 months and 1.5yrs went round hitting every child and then went over to where my son was playing with three other boys and pushed my son who then created a domino effect and he being the biggest almost crushed the other boys. I felt awful that he’d potentially hurt the other boys but then I remember she’d gone and pushed him hard. That girls Grandma just said calmly oh you can’t do that, then pulled her away from the group (wtaf how will she learn to not do it, if you don’t discipline her) . If that was my son he’d be getting told off sternly, I’d apologise to parents and make sure the children were all ok.

Boys do have a lot of energy and definitely don’t sit still for more than two minutes but that’s just the way they are. Unfortunately I think at groups they expect 3yr olds to be in nursery so don’t really cater to 3+, a majority of groups are for babies or small toddlers. 3yrs run riot because they’ve nothing to interest them and they are bored I think

I've got 2 girls and a boy.
My ds definitely had more energy and less danger awareness then my daughter's at age 2 to 3ish. It was utterly exhausting as I couldn't ever just sit down. I'd have to constantly be watching his every move otherwise he would get himself in a dangerous situation. However he was never abnormally violent or rude to other children.
One of the only places I could relax was the children's centres toddler group as I knew he was safe there, there was nothing for him to destroy etc
He even ran away from his private nursery once and a friend of mine found him crossing a very busy main road (He was 2).
Now he is 8 he has calmed down. He has more awareness and empathy although he is still definitely more energetic then the girls were at his age. He does prefer running around while my dds like calmer activities like crafts, colouring etc. They all enjoy sports and my dd1 is very good at some sports. Yet In spare time will chose quotes activities.
I don't feel this is directed by me.

YANBU. The whole 'boys will be boys' mentality makes my piss boil.

My sister has 2 boys and 2 girls, and she does NOT tolerate that kind of behaviour from her boys! But I know it does happen, and you hear the whole 'boys will be boys' bullshit that puts my teeth on edge. 😬😬😬 YANBU

I became the father of a girl child. I would have loved the child if he were a boy but at 60, I have spent a lifetime evading football, guns, rough and tumble, cars, the whole boys' toys thing. I was dreading having to do all that should I have had a boy. YANBU. Girls can be naughty too but given a sense of entitlement this behaviour is what goes from boisterous to bollocks when they get older and share this with 'mates'. It becomes the patriarchy. And it damages men too. Like male genetic mutilation, oh I mean, circumcision, the brutality becomes the norm.

I have spent a lifetime evading football, guns, rough and tumble, cars, the whole boys' toys thing. I was dreading having to do all that should I have had a boy.

But why would you expect your boy to be into that? Do you see that's subtle gender expectations already at work?

My brother never played football or with guns in his life, he has no interest in cars, he has no interest in rough and tumble play. He likes music and animals. My DP is the same!

die you aren't alone in being put off by 'pinkification' of stem / computing. I'm amazed it still goes on because the whole idea has been debunked so many times.

If you deliberately counter the stereotypes and do science in high heels with glitter, then all you do is hyper activate the gender stereotype awareness in participants and make it even less likely they will engage. Plus you put off the people who just wanted to do science and didn't previously have a conscious issue with doing it as a girl.

If it helps at all I challenge this kind of approach each and ever time I see it.

There is a big difference I think between that kind of behaviour and the level of rebranding I'm involved in. I tell school girls that the think I enjoy most about science is working with other scientist. I tell them how collaborative it is and how much opportunity there is for personal development etc. because all of that is 100% true....and just happens to fit better with the stereotypical female gender bias than all the guff you get about super hero brilliant scientists, doing it not only on their own, but against the consensus of their peers from movies and TV....which just happens to play better to the male stereotypical biases.

I bet its the same in computing. I bet people imagine coding as a lone activity, done in a darkened room (by men) when I bet the reality is lots of working together on big projects, lots of collaboration, lots of teamwork and possibly even open plan offices.

Yes, and when I was at primary school I remember a group of girls (not including me I hasten to add) cornering a boy in the playground, pulling down his trousers and laughing at his penis.

What really pisses me off is that this behaviour is often laughed off and overlooked when girls do it. People are more horrified if boys were to do it a girl and I don’t understand why. What’s the difference?
Don’t boys and men deserve the right to keep their bodies to themselves too?

I have spent a lifetime evading football, guns, rough and tumble, cars, the whole boys' toys thing. I was dreading having to do all that should I have had a boy.

What if your daughter wanted to play with them? You’d have been stumped then.

Parenting is the most difficult job in the world IMHO but so important to try to get it right. Otherwise, you are setting up problems for your child when they grow up.

Friend of mine (really lovely but far too soft) totally indulged her children when young - girls & boys. They were allowed to do just what they wanted, never disciplined and totally spoilt. They grew up completely out of control, had major problems at school, dropped out of FE and jobs and now are unemployed and living off her. Their children, not surprisingly, are also completely unmanageable.

You're absolutely right and there is research to back up the fact that we treat children differently from birth according to sex. That's not to say there are some broad general differences because boys do definitely develop more slowly on average but acting up a like a little shit shouldn't be one of them.
You'll just need to work extra hard to raise a compassionate, empathetic and kind little boy who behaves as well as your daughter. Let us know how you get on!

You'll just need to work extra hard to raise a compassionate, empathetic and kind little boy who behaves as well as your daughter.

Why will she need to work extra hard?

I bet its the same in computing. I bet people imagine coding as a lone activity, done in a darkened room (by men) when I bet the reality is lots of working together on big projects, lots of collaboration, lots of teamwork and possibly even open plan offices.

Teamwork definitely, sadly in open plan offices far too often! Personally I think open plan offices are surely count as a form of cruel and unusual punishment and should be banned!

Ultimately industrial computing involves building products collaboratively with others, honestly most of whom are idiots and doing it wrong (lol), you'd love to be able to build the whole thing yourself, even if it's a massive project it feels like it would be easier than herding the cats that are programmers - and as for maintaining other peoples code... lord have mercy!

I think the biggest thing putting women off programming jobs though, least it puts me off and I am actually qualified for them, is the idea you have to be spending your whole life doing it, all your hobbies should be it, you should feel excited to work extra hours because you just love it sooooo much. Whether men and women are innately different or not the whole monomania thing seems much more prevalent among men as adults and it's not something I think I'd want women to emulate... it's actually better to have a life and companies just encourage it to make slaves of us all. Work life balance is the most important thing and it's good for women AND men (even if some young crazy men who haven't yet got families think that it's worth giving up your whole life just because work provide ping pong tables and free lunches).

'Work life balance is the most important thing and it's good for women AND men '

So true, and for parents and non-parents alike. And I'm completely with you on open plan offices. I work in one sometimes and dear god, the phone shouters, the sniffers, the sighers, and generally noisy buggers drive me potty!

@Hiphopfrog

"You'll just need to work extra hard to raise a compassionate, empathetic and kind little boy who behaves as well as your daughter. Let us know how you get on!"

Yeah, got to stamp out all that toxic masculinity....

What a tragic way to approach parenthood. This a little boy, with all the amazing potential that all children have. Stop all this boys v girls shite

I have this argument with my husband all the time. Our eldest son is three and he can be a handful, running around and being hyper and rough. I tell him off when he gets too out of hand and crosses the line from being fun to being naughty, but my husband tells me he’s just a boy and it really winds me up. We don’t have a daughter but I’m sure if we did he wouldn’t say it was just being a girl

@thereareflowersinmygarden

That's preciously my point. It's not about stamping out 'masculinity', it's about making sure you treat your kids equally and hold them to the same standards of behavior!

My daughter is totally rough and tumble, a risk taker, always covered in dirt and happiest in the garden with her pet spiders, by no means a precious princess. As a parent, I've always considered kindness and empathy to be the most important things to teach your children but I don't think that these qualities are expected of boys as much as they are of girls. I agree with @Yellowcrocodile on this.

(If every child was raised to always be kind to others... just imagine.)

I have a friend who always excuses her (frankly nasty, unlikeable) son's behavior as 'well he's a boy'. Like fuck it is!! If my daughter bullied other kids and called them horrible names I'd react with fury but she doesn't tell him off. He's going to grow up into a horrible example of manhood unless they rein him in now.

@JuJu2017

so true!! My friend is always putting my daughter's general kindness down to 'she's a girl' and her son's bullying down to 'he's a boy'. It winds me up too. If I had a son I'd expect the same respect towards others as I expect from my daughter.

They allow him to throw their cat around like a football 'because he's a boy'. It disgusts me and wouldn't tolerate that from any child male or female.

YANBU. I am a mother to a son and twin girls. I get this all the time. I try to have the same boundaries and rules. My husband catches me sometimes and I catch him making assumptions. I think it is, sometimes, lazy parenting/teaching.

My children are in year 6 and year 3. They now call out these inequities.

it is really difficult when it is a relative treating my girls differently from their brother. I have to work to balance both ways.

'He's going to grow up into a horrible example of manhood unless they rein him in now.'

So true, sadly. They will be pulling their hair out when he's a teenager and wondering why his behaviour is becoming even more scary and unmanageable

What really pisses me off is that this behaviour is often laughed off and overlooked when girls do it. People are more horrified if boys were to do it a girl and I don’t understand why. What’s the difference?
Don’t boys and men deserve the right to keep their bodies to themselves too?

You say this like it's something that happens all the time and people just laugh if that happens to a male child? umm I've never ever heard of a situation like that happening to a boy in school and if it did you don't think the boys parents would kick up a fuss about it? Don't be ridiculous of course they would, I would, wouldn't you?

firstly
wait until you have a bit of your own ...
secondly
stop trying to turn boys into girls

Also, they all seem to be call very boring middle class names like Benjamin,

YABU for this comment alone....!!!!