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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

*possible trigger topic* AIBU paedophile in the family

358 replies

Anon112233 · 07/07/2018 23:18

Looking for some advice on a difficult situation.

My husband's brother is a convicted paedophile. He was charged with serious sexual offences against a family member and was released from prison earlier this year.

My husband and his family have all forgiven his brother and had contact whilst in prison and continue see him regularly now.

My husband and I have a baby and, to date, I have refused to allow my brother-in-law to meet her. However my husband is becoming increasingly frustrated by this and wants his brother to be allowed to meet his niece and for us all to attend family events together so long as he is always supervised.

I'm very reluctant to agree to this. Although we can easily supervise contact now as our child is not yet mobile, when she grows up she will move around the house by herself and, short of trailing after her (I'm picturing waiting outside the bathroom etc!!), I don't see how we can ensure constant supervision. Additionally, as she grows up I don't want to have to explain to my child the reason she can never be alone with her uncle!

Also, my husbands parents have regular contact with my brother-in-law and clearly do not consider him to be a threat. If they have seen that we allow our child to have occasional contact, how can I ensure that they do think it's okay to let him have contact when babysitting etc?? I feel like a blanket 'no contact' rule is more straightforward than 'he is allow to have contact when we are there but we don't trust you to protect her'.

If I decide to continue with no contact, am I within my rights as a parent to make that decision even if my husband disagrees?? How do I explain my feelings to him/help him understand my point of view when he clearly loves and trusts his brother and would like him to be involved in our lives? Do you think I am being unreasonable? Would occasional supervised contact be such a bad thing?

Would ss consider my husband and I to have put our child at risk by allowing supervised contact? And is there anyone we need to inform if supervised contact does take place?

Sorry, lots of questions and they may not make sense but my head is a bit jumbled trying to process this!! Any advice would be gratefully received xx

OP posts:
Yoksha · 09/07/2018 09:45

Thanks Schaden. Much appreciated.

SchadenfreudePersonified · 09/07/2018 09:48

They do not change. They lie, they get better at hiding things. Their whole world is based on secrecy, manipulation and being ruthless to get what they want.

And when age or infirmity means that they can no longer rape children themselves, they continue to facilitate abuse by others - theirs is a very sick and close world.

I know many, if not most, have been abused as children themselves, but this is not an excuse - they have been through the horror, and should do all they can not to put another child through the same. (Also, statistics indicate although paedophiles are almost always male, something like 95% of victims are female. Women rarely, if ever, become abusers unless they link up with a male abuser.

Sorry if you want a reference - I read this a while ago, but can't recall the source, but it was a reliable one.

Jakadaal · 09/07/2018 09:48

I sympathise with you OP. My elderly FIL is currently in jail for sexual abuse crimes. I have told my DH that under no circumstances will he be allowed in our home upon his release. My dc are teenagers and both have expressed a wish not to see him again so that makes things a lot easier. My DH is very supportive of his father but has finally acknowledged the fact that his father is very much guilty of the crimes is was convicted for ..... however in the early days of his sentence things were very different and I was prepared to separate from my DH if he insisted on us all being one happy family again upon his fathers release. TBH I hope he dies in prison - it would certainly simplify things.

Stick to your guns OP Flowers

SchadenfreudePersonified · 09/07/2018 09:52

I wonder how much of paedophilia is a genuine "sexual attraction to children" thing, and how much is a "power"thing?

I'm purely speculating here, but children are so vulnerable and helpless and easily intimidated - I can envisage many of these perverts getting their kicks from that alone.

Andro · 09/07/2018 10:29

SchadenfreudePersonified

It's complicated!

The definition of being a paedophile is having a primary sexual attraction to prepubescent children. Not all paedophiles are guilty of sexual abuse crimes against children, not all those who commit child sexual abuse are paedophiles (according to strict definition).

Rape is usually about power, but some paedophiles either believe or have convinced themselves that their victim 'consented' Envy

Lostbeyondwords · 09/07/2018 10:29

Are you ok OP? It's a hard thing to get your head around, and clearly even harder for blood family. Our social worker wasn't great tbh but she did give one bit of advice I found very useful. "Anyone who supports an abuser is not supporting your child and is therefore a threat to them, as they won't put the child's interests and safety first." It sounds harsh on the surface but I've found it to be true.

Even though my dd's abuser wasn't going to physically be in the same premises as my dd, our SW advised she have NO unsupervised contact with anyone who was supportive of him in case they try to make apologies or facilitate contact, as apparently often happens. We've had to go nc with my family for this reason as contact was so hard and emotionally draining, not understanding what I could be missing as to why they wouldn't put dd above his or their wants. I still don't think they fully get it, but I feel a lot better knowing we don't have to faff about with contact and who will be around or what's said.

Jenny70 · 09/07/2018 15:01

The pattern of acceptance will start with your daughter if she has contact with her uncle... she will know him and trust him, as she trusts her grandparents, family friends etc. She is a baby now, but soon she will be a toddler, a young girl, a teen... someone who will have some independence and now have a connection to a paedophile. If he meets her in the street with a "friend" she won't be afraid, her judgement will be biased by the trust the extended family has given her.

If this were a friend who raped children, would your DH invite him into her life?

What does he bring to her life, other than a massive risk that he will groom her to be abused? Family should be a circle of people who love and protect you, inserting him into it puts a rotten apple in the middle of that loving relationship. And a massive hole in your trust of DH and his family that have supported the abuser and not the victim in this.

Jux · 09/07/2018 16:28

At 08:16 yesterday, Fermat said this:
Several people have made the very good point that as your child grows older, you cannot maintain the level of supervision necessary at family gatherings.

Remember that we are talking about grooming, not one-off forcible encounters of the sort a stranger in the park might commit. The game plan on the part of the paedophile is to fool the child into thinking the contact is (a) within the bounds of what's normal between adults and children and (b) is consensual.

And also remember that paedophiles of this type are to play the long game, the very, very long game. (Hell, some spend years training for professions simply because those professions will bring them into contact with children - think of the teachers, doctors, sports coaches prepared to do this. And think of that shit-stain of a gymnastics coach in the US who actually managed to sexually assault some of his victims under the guise of performing medical exams, while their mothers were in the same room).

Now think about your child, not just as a toddler as they now are, but as they grow up. Aged 3, you watch BIL being nice through gritted teeth, thinking "it's okay so long as I don't let her out of my sight - nothing can happen". But something is happening - BIL is establishing himself in your child's mind as "nice uncle fred who is always kind to me and who I can trust." Age 6, your child starts to wonder why her cousins get to play alone with nice uncle fred, but you won't let her, and that feels unfair... and uncle fred has succeeded in driving a subtle wedge between you and your child, because your child is now (without even realising what they're doing) questioning your judgement. Age 10, you are starting to allow your child more freedom. Perhaps she gets to go to sleepovers with school friends where you know their parents. But she's aware that she's not allowed to go to sleepovers with her cousins... and doesn't know why. All this time uncle fred continues to build up his profile in her mind as "nice uncle fred." Then aged 12, by which point she's cycling to school on her own and being allowed to go to the park unattended for short amounts of time with her friends, uncle fred manages to find out what times she goes to the park (in one of those conversations you're "supervising", i.e. watching from the other side of the room through gritted teeth, not close enough to actually hear the words spoken, but which your husband insists is perfectly okay 'cos it's not like his brother fred is actually touching her or anything). Uncle fred manages to "accidentally" encounter her there, and hey presto, he manages to establish a pattern of meeting up with her without you even knowing (telling her "don't mention it to your mum, because for some reason she's never liked me..." - choosing early adolescence, the exact point most girls start to clash with their mothers for developmentally predictable reasons due to puberty, as the point at which to do this).

That's why the only way forward is no contact.

And Jenny70 just now, said:
The pattern of acceptance will start with your daughter if she has contact with her uncle... she will know him and trust him, as she trusts her grandparents, family friends etc. She is a baby now, but soon she will be a toddler, a young girl, a teen... someone who will have some independence and now have a connection to a paedophile. If he meets her in the street with a "friend" she won't be afraid, her judgement will be biased by the trust the extended family has given her.

If this were a friend who raped children, would your DH invite him into her life?

What does he bring to her life, other than a massive risk that he will groom her to be abused? Family should be a circle of people who love and protect you, inserting him into it puts a rotten apple in the middle of that loving relationship. And a massive hole in your trust of DH and his family that have supported the abuser and not the victim in this.

These posts clearly delineate the process of grooming. If nothing else, ask your dh to read these. He needs to understand how it works so he can recognise it should it behappening, and safeguard his children.

It is longterm and subtle and apparently completely normal, but it is not normal. As people have said over and over, paedophiles are for life, they will not change and even if they are determined to act again, is your dh really, honestly, seriously OK with the risk of a 'slip' of bro's determination would probably involve your and his own chidren?

IamtheDevilsAvocado · 09/07/2018 16:56

What a powerful thread.... My absolute best sympathies go to the survivors of these reprehensible crimes...

Ive worked professionally with abusers.... They are the most manipulative people you EVER will meet...

They absolutely often ply the long game waiting, laying the ground for their vile offending.

Whole families ARE groomed.

Often the survivors is cut off from the family .... The survivors are up against very often articulate, manipulative offenders....who minimise /deny their offences.....

To keep a family 'sane' (and massively toxic), it is 'better' that everyone minimises /believes the offender... Horrid but true. Even 'better' if the survivor is no longer present to give the correct account...
Horrible.... But how many families act...

Also people who haven't been abused or worked in the field... Have ABSOLUTELY no conception of sex offences... It is just too far outside their own experience.

WesternMeadowlark · 09/07/2018 17:22

I hope your husband sees sense, OP. My thoughts are also with the victim, who sounds still in an outrageously - albeit not abnormally, infuriatiningly - unsupported position.

I'm only really commenting because upthread someone has repeated the gender myth about who is a risk to children.

PLEASE everyone don't assume that a child is safe with someone because they're a woman. And don't fail to read into what they tell you about a woman's action what you would read into it if that person were a man.

I don't have time right now to find all the links I used last time I had to make this point, but someone made a resource list here:

www.femalesexoffenders.org/resources

Despite the avowed purpose of that site, mentioned in its disclaimer, it could be full of misogynists; I don't know, I don't have time to dig, either. But despite that possibility, and the occasional broken link or methodological issue, there is easily enough there to see that a lot of the people who are a danger to children are women. Even if it were 1-5%, then given how many child abusers are out there, that wouldn't be a small number. But there's no way it's that low.

By repeating the myth that the sexual abuse of children is - either solely or overwhelmingly - a male crime, you are nurturing the idea in people's minds that they don't need to be as vigilant with women. And by doing that, you are helping increase the danger. Please don't.

It's horrible to have to reassess fundamental things about how you see people and see the world. But whatever ideas you have that the research may shatter, they are not worth hanging onto when the cost of them could be so high.

WesternMeadowlark · 09/07/2018 17:25

It is also horribly insulting to all victims of female paedophiles, of whom there are many.

Which should be enough of an argument on its own, but I've never known it be before, sadly.

Nottheduchessofcambridge · 09/07/2018 17:56

Somebody I worked with (in a public facing role) was outed as he is been cautioned for downloading child abuse images to distribute many years ago. The only reason he wasn’t charged is because he gave up the names of other paedophiles. He was sacked from his old job (where he worked with babies) but our company never followed up his caution admission on his application form. When everyone found out nobody would talk to him so he put a grievance in to the company!! They are a brazen group of twisted individuals!! He has kids and his wife stuck by him. Turns my stomach.

UneMoonit · 09/07/2018 18:53

Schadenfreude: I do not believe that 95% of molested children are female. I have know of too many abuse victims of both sexes to believe it is that skewed. Also, I am reasonably convinced that many victims will NEVER tell anyone unless something makes them do so.

Either way, I'd hate to think of people thinking little boys are safe from child molesters, that is certainly not true. Or that women who molest don't exist, because these monsters thrive in an environment where nobody sees them as a risk -people even disbelieve their own children because "women don't do that". Women definitely do, do that.

People of both sexes hurt children of both sexes.

Jonsey79 · 09/07/2018 19:10

Over my dead body would he ever meet my child.

In your shoes OP I would contact his parole officer and the NSPCC for advice.

However tough and awkward, your child is your only priority now. Sod your dh and his family.

SchadenfreudePersonified · 09/07/2018 19:17

Either way, I'd hate to think of people thinking little boys are safe from child molesters, that is certainly not true

I agree with you here Moonit. I wish I could remember where I got my figures from - it was a reputable source, and though I can't remember the exact figures, there was a massive disparity.

But you are right - no-one can be trusted until you know they can be trusted.

And as a child I was sexually abused by a female babysitter, so I know it happens - it's just much, much rarer (or, of course, less reported).

Bananarama12 · 09/07/2018 19:18

Both me and my sister were sexually abused by my grandad.
No no no and no.
Stick to your guns and protect your child.

Ninabean17 · 09/07/2018 19:26

I'm with what fermats said. Stay strong with this, op.

Anon12345ABC · 09/07/2018 22:06

I am curious as to why the OP has only posted twice about such an emotional subject.

CaledonianQueen · 09/07/2018 22:10

I hope that you are ok @anon112233, I realise that many of the responses you have had will be very difficult for you to read. Please do read them though! Do not allow your dh or your in laws to convince you that you are in the wrong! Your Mama Bear instincts are going crazy for the right reason!

I do agree with posters who have expressed concern over your dh’s boundaries regarding child sexual abuse. Considering that your BIL has been found guilty of/ served time in prison for a disgusting act of sexual depravity towards a female child in his family. It is very deeply concerning that your in laws and in particular your dh have ‘forgiven’ your BIL and actively are fighting with you to allow paedophile bil to have access to your tiny baby girl! This suggests a culture of normalising child sexual abuse, perhaps they see children as capable of consenting to csa. In your shoes I would be asking my husband and in laws many questions, regarding why he/ they think/thinks it was ok for his/their brother/son to rape/ abuse their female relative. I would be asking if they would think it ok for bil to do the same to your baby girl, or whether your dh has any thoughts of doing the same himself.

Hopefully the idea of that will induce complete and utter disgust/horror/ anger and you can ask why they are not having that reaction to bil after his behaviour! As most, normal parents would die for their child before allowing an evil monster like your bil in the same vicinity of their innocent and vulnerable baby girl!

ChocoholicsAsylum · 13/07/2018 02:26

I still dont get how the child who was abused in this family has had to see him? Can somebody explain this?? His officer would check for this surely before he got out??

vdbfamily · 13/07/2018 18:56

Chocoholics the child may be an adult and the abuse historic. As I have mentioned previosly in the thread, I was molested by a realtive, as was my best friend and a cousin of mine. We did not disclose until in our 20's and although he lives at a distance, I still see him at family do's every few years or so. He had the cheek to offer me a lift from cemetary to wake at my grans funeral. He was quite taken aback at my refusal!!

ChocoholicsAsylum · 13/07/2018 19:27

@vdbfamily

Yeah I suppose they could be older, I was re-reading the second post... could still be a teen by sounds of it... I am sorry you went through that hell. It turns my stomach.

fussyfuzzy · 14/01/2019 23:40

I know this is an old thread but I wanted to add my opinion. My brother is currently serving time for possessing and making images of pre teens. As far as we know he never participated in abuse and was 'just looking'. I AM still in contact with him. I HAVE NOT forgiven him, nor will I ever but he is still my brother, we have nearly 40 years of history between us. I will NEVER let him see my daughter again (she's nearly 6). If it was up to me, he would stay locked away but thats not to be. I hope you haven't relented and let the family sway you. My brother is so tied up in his lies I doubt he even knows whats real and whats not. They lie, they hide and they prey on the most innocent in our lives. DO NOT TRUST THEM.

JustAPenny · 14/01/2019 23:54

WTF. What possible reason can you have to ok that you are still in contact with him. Jesus christ!

Tweety1981 · 14/01/2019 23:58

I think you are doing the right thing. Hold your ground .

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