To ask if you think it is controversial to say that a person with male genitalia should not be allowed to use changing rooms used by people with vaginas?

[aaarrrggghhhh]

www.theargus.co.uk/news/16334391.trans-women-are-still-males-with-male-genitalia/

The Argus (Brighton newspaper) says that it is controversial for someone to say this:

"many trans women are still males with male genitalia, many are sexually attracted to females, and they should not be in places where females undress or sleep in a completely unrestricted way.”

The definition of controversial is likely to give rise to a public disagreement.

Do you think it is likely that most people would disagree with the statement that people with penises should not use the changing rooms which people with vaginas are using?

1. As already stated, the existence of intersex people has nothing whatever to do with transgender issues.

1. Where one group in society is consistently disadvantaged because of a characteristic they all share, it is absolutely essential that we should have a word to describe that group, a word that everybody understands. Humans are mammals. Like all other mammals, for reproductive purposes we have two sex classes. One produces sperm and one produces ova. The ova producing class gestates young and has the capacity to feed them with milk. That latter class has all sorts of special problems and issues to face as a result of either having that reproductive capacity, or being perceived to belong to the class that has it. This is sexism - discrimination on the basis of biological sex. We therefore need a word to describe that class of people. Fortunately, we have the words - woman, girl, female.

If the meaning of those words is muddied so we no longer have any clear understanding of what they mean, how can we talk clearly about sexism?

The waters are already being muddied here and boundaries are being eroded. Public bodies referring to menstruators, people with a cervix, chest feeding, pregnant people, non-men. Women who want to see a female health care practitioner for intimate care are finding that even expressing that preference is marking them out as transphobic in some eyes. Women in refuges and using rape crisis services are no longer able to be sure that there won't be male-bodied people present. Female prison officers are being expected to do body searches on male-bodied people who say they identify as female. Crimes committed by male-bodied people - if they say the identify as female it gets recorded as a female crime. Hence the startling sudden increase in rape committed by 'women'. The Girl Guides are not going to tell parents if the Guider or any of the Guides are male-bodied and at the same time they expect female-bodied Guides/Guiders who identify as male to leave.

Reverting to the OP. if anybody had said five years ago (probably less than that) that the views expressed by Dr Stock were controversial people would have been rolling in the aisles. How on earth have we got to this position?

how do people who are intersex...

Every time!!

Intersex people are male lie are not a third sex, or 'in between'. They are male or female but a range of conditions mean that it's difficult to know what their sex is without a chromosomal test. Look up Klinfeler and turner syndrome.

Should be 'are male or female'

I hate using changing rooms I always head straight to a cubicle. I have nothing against transitioning or transgender people however if you have a penis you should not be in the women's changing room!

I’d like blokes who wear dresses to use the correct changing room, which is the mens’ one. Transwomen who have gone through the whole process of reassignment and gained their GRC I can accept in the women’s area, but not otherwise. Men should not just be able to call themselves ‘Mandy’ for the day and saunter on in.

Controversial? - maybe

Boring and done to death? - very much

Interested to hear opinions- im gonna whach a wasp nest to see how angry they get

The original question was about genitalia. Sorry to be so crass. My point is about inclusivity. I’m not interested in appropriating the view of any group - I am only interested in ensuring that everyone has the same right to privacy and safety. And if that means we have to make wholesale changes to how we see traditionally sex segregated spaces from communal spaces to individual private spaces to ensure that, so be it.

To the person asking about women’s refuges. I agree, it’s not unreasonable to expect women who use a refuge to want to feel safe. By the same token, trans folk who are also fleeing violence or abuse also deserve a refuge. That might not be the same one, if privacy and safety of all can’t be guaranteed.

Right. As a natal female as also with a male to female transgender family member, I am going to make my first comment on a transgender thread.
I would not be comfortable with pre-op transgendered adults being in a changing room where their genitals didn't match the door sign.
This is because I would feel scared if it was me in the changing room and also I would be concerned about the transgendered person being open to accusations.
Once the transition has been completed- absolutely no problem with it.

Out of interest what does everyone on here think of a trans male, still with a vagina, using the female changing room? I suspect you would prefer them in the male changing room? Surely you can't have it both ways.

@elasticity
I don't! I think they should be in the women's changing room until they've transitioned.
I have a lot of love and sympathy for the difficulties transgendered people face. However, you do have to consider other people's feelings too. We don't live on the "Mandy" show where the whole world has the revolve around what "Mandy" wants.
No (wo)man is an island.

So a woman shouldnt be allowed to take her 3 year old son in the same changing toom with her. Nor can she go to his to supervise or help

@araiwa
I do think children are a totally different kettle of fish.
Of course I would have no issue with taking your own young children with you in to a changing room.
I was talking about adults, as per my first post.

@jazzybeats
I absolutely agree with everything you've said. We all have the right to a safe space.

Conversely I expect physical assaults against trans women by cis women number considerably higher.

Can you expand on this please?

It will take a very nasty assault or murder for self ID access to women's spaces to be reversed.

Can we not use 'cis' please, it's buying in to diminishing women. You are either a woman or a trans woman. No need to call those who are adult human females with all the correct chromosomes anything other than a woman.

Is there a real example of where a truly committed trans female has committed a sexual assault in a female changing room or toilet? I suspect not and if there are cases they are a tiny tiny proportion of all trans women.

So it's OK as long as the attacker isn't a 'truly commited transwoman'?

With self id it doesn't matter if that transwoman is 'truly committed' or just a bloke who fancies using the changing room. It will be much more difficult to police men in female spaces. Which is why self id hurts transgender people as well as women and girls.

Conversely I expect physical assaults against trans women by cis women number considerably higher

Excuse me?

There isn't a lot of logic to the position.

Just about everybody agrees that most of the violence in society is committed by men, including almost all the sexual violence. Not all men are violent, but the proportion who are is a lot larger than the proportion of women who are violent. You only have to look at the prison statistics to see this.

Trans women argue that it isn't safe for them to use men's spaces as they would be likely to be attacked. But if anybody at all can go into the women's spaces and say they self-id as female, those spaces are no safer than the men's. Firstly, none of the women in those spaces will have the right to challenge an obvious male because if they say they are female, that's the end of that, no challenge possible.

Secondly, other people who would currently challenge an obvious male-bodied person seen going into a women's space won't do it any more, because they will also be worried about wrongly challenging a transgender person. In Canada, misgendering runs the risk of getting a criminal conviction. Even if our laws don't go the same way, it would be very damaging socially and possibly at work for someone to be labelled as transphobic.

So self-id doesn't increase the safety of trans women and it reduces the safety of women.

Elasticity

I thought the term cis woman was banned on mumsnet as it’s as insulting as it is ridiculous to the vast majority of women. On here and in RL.

Of course you are being perfectly reasonable and sensible op but just st this moment common sense and safe guarding has been overridden by a very small minority of entitled men. *not those who have transitioned fully, they would be welcome with open arms I think, but the men who are self ID and then seek to bully their way into places they have no right to be.

Reported your comments Elasticity and hope mumsnet delete them.

I never understand why people think this is a gotcha

In the old days if i saw a 'man' in the ladies i would assume that they were a very manly women, wouldnt make a difference to me in the same way a transwomen wouldnt

Nowadays if i saw a 'man' in the ladies i would assume it was a man...but i would feel that i would be unable to have the 'man' removed

@Elasticity

There are many examples of transwomen committing sexual assault and/rape, including the rape of children, have a look at the fair play for women website.

The majority of transwomen in prison are in prison for sexual assault/violent crimes. What does that say to you?

Meanwhile there have been ZERO incidences of women assaulting transwomen.

Spaces which are sex segregated need to stay sex segregated- that is segregated by genitalia, penises in the men’s, vulvas in the ladies.

Dammit I wish there was an edit function!

There are many examples of transwomen committing sexual assault and/rape, including the rape of children, have a look at the fair play for women website*

*Not all transwomen assualt or rape, just as not all men assault or rape, but whilst assualt and rape are still a threat then sex segregated spaces are needed