To ask if you think it is controversial to say that a person with male genitalia should not be allowed to use changing rooms used by people with vaginas?

[aaarrrggghhhh]

www.theargus.co.uk/news/16334391.trans-women-are-still-males-with-male-genitalia/

The Argus (Brighton newspaper) says that it is controversial for someone to say this:

"many trans women are still males with male genitalia, many are sexually attracted to females, and they should not be in places where females undress or sleep in a completely unrestricted way.”

The definition of controversial is likely to give rise to a public disagreement.

Do you think it is likely that most people would disagree with the statement that people with penises should not use the changing rooms which people with vaginas are using?

Had no idea cis is banned on here so apologies for that.

My point still stands. The incidences/proportion of trans women who would commit assaults etc in a female toilet/changing room is low. As I said they put up with a lot of abuse from everybody - both men and women. I still believe that a trans woman is more likely to receive verbal and physical abuse from women than they are to dish it out. You honestly think there have been no instances of angry women in changing rooms etc assaulting trans women?

Still interested in opinions regarding whether a trans male with vagina is okay to use female changing room? As by the opinion on here, if applied in reverse then they should not be using the male changing room.

You still haven’t grasped that in a women’s space vaginas are fine, penis(s) are not?
Stop goading

elasticity

You can discuss the use of the word cis, and you can use it for yourself obviously

But you cant use it for anone else if that makes sense

Not controversial to most people outside Brighton I don't think. To most people, the changing rooms, toilets, prisons are separated by sex, not gender (gender is the false idea that men and women act in specific ways, pink brains/blue brains). People tend to talk about 'gender' rather than 'sex' though because ... politeness? To get to the point: The men's changing rooms are for male SEX and the women's changing rooms are for female SEX is non-controversial. I wish we could continue to use the term 'UNISEX' changing room/toilet instead of the ridiculous 'gender neutral' euphemism.

ou honestly think there have been no instances of angry women in changing rooms etc assaulting trans women?

Assaulting them because they are trans? Doubt it very much though i would be happy to change my mind when provided with evidence, moving forward there may be....who knows

On the one hand, I think this should not be controversial - swimming pool changing rooms allow for zero privacy, for instance, but apart from the miniscule number of trans people in any given swimming pool at any given time, this lack of privacy can make MANY people uncomfortable, the potential trans aspect completely aside.

I think in the case of toilets and changing rooms and these sort of public spaces, it's an architecture issue, not a social one, and trans people have correctly (if only by mistake in some cases...).

If we have properly designed private changing spaces, then we can have properly gender neutral public spaces, which I think is highly preferable anyway. Maybe we'll look back on gender segregated facilities with the same bogglement as gender segregated workplaces, or race segregated places some day.

Elasticity
My point still stands. The incidences/proportion of trans women who would commit assaults etc in a female toilet/changing room is low.

That's not a good point. It ignores the need for privacy, and the fact that many women cannot use shared spaces. Mixed sex spaces exclude women including abuse survivors, those in abusive/controlling relationships, and those from strict religious backgrounds.

Self ID will let any man enter, on the assertion he identifies as a woman. The reality is that wont be able to challenge them.

Go and fight for a third unisex space, and you can all use them to prove to us how safe and private they are.

Oh well if its low that’s absolutely fine then. you have made claims that women have attacked trans women??? Where? Link to a case

If you mean women complaining that a man identifying as a woman is in a female changing room that’s not assault that’s completely bloody understandable. .

@Elasticity I would like to know where you set the bar, in your opinion how many women and children can be raped before the risk becomes to high?

Oh Jesus, are we talking about merely saying a male body doesn’t belong in a female toilet being actual literal violence here??
Is that what you mean by assault?

I still believe that a trans woman is more likely to receive verbal and physical abuse from women than they are to dish it out. You honestly think there have been no instances of angry women in changing rooms etc assaulting trans women?

Verbal abuse is very unpleasant, but what women are afraid of when men transgress boundaries and go into their space is sexual and physical violence, which is potentially fatal.

Still interested in opinions regarding whether a trans male with vagina is okay to use female changing room? As by the opinion on here, if applied in reverse then they should not be using the male changing room. Anyone with a vagina is a woman and is welcome to use the women's changing room. But the fact is that a trans man in a male changing room is likely to be smaller and weaker than the men around him and so pose a negligible physical threat to them. Whereas he might be in danger from them - suspect many trans men would prefer to keep the option of using women's facilities for their own safety.

Elasticity

Are you talking about incidences like the one Eddie Izzard so proudly relayed - where he went into the women's toilets and then was upset because some 13 year old girls told him that they didn't like him being in there?

Elasticity

What is your view on Travis Alabanza and the Topshop changing room thing? Is he 'trans' enough for you?

Being ignored on my query regarding trans males - if they have a vagina can they change with females?

I give up responding as let's be honest I won't change your minds and you won't change mine.

Self ID is a different issue imo and people are conflating a male who present clearly as male wanting to use the female changing room by saying they are female with a committed trans female who public displays in as female of a way as possible relative to their current state of transition i.e. in female dress, makeup etc.

The proportion of committed trans females who would commit assaults is very low. Surely a lower proportion than males. It would be interesting to know what proportion of sexual assaults committed in female toilets are performed by males (who identify as men and display as such) simply walking in vs committed trans females undergoing or completing transition. Again I would suspect the comparison is tiny and the percentage of trans females committing such things is tiny. You are probably more at risk from a male simply walking in than a trans female presenting as a female being in the same changing room/toilet.

Anyway no more responses from me.

Candypinkstars
Not controversial just irrelevant...

You have not been ignored on your query

Unisex changing rooms with lockable cubicles such as we have locally is the way to go. You should always have the option of not seeing someone's junk, and for other people not to see yours. That deals with the issue of people who don't want to see a particular set of a genitals.

Elasticity

Do you have a problem processing that by allowing a bloke into female only spaces we are allowing any bloke, including sexual perverts and paedophiles, to freely use female only spaces. They only have to say, "I'm Susan. I identify as a female today"....

Let that sink in....

Far from being ignored, every single point made has been answered several times! Meanwhile you've ignored all the points being made in response to you.

elasticity

I bloody answered!

@Elasticty

I will repeat my really straightforward question for you

How many women and children can be raped before you deem the risk enough to be a problem?

You keep saying you ‘suspect’ incidences of transwomen assaulting and raping are low- they are not, have a look at the fair play for women website you will find the stastics there.

Oh and for what it’s worth There is no evidence to suggest that currently transwomen commit assault and rape at a lower rate than men (I would also be interested to see historical stats on this if anyone can direct me)

Being ignored on my query regarding trans males - if they have a vagina can they change with females? I've answered it and so have other posters. Who determines whether a transperson is "committed", and how?

Personally I think as long as a person identifies as a woman they should be allowed to use facilities used by women. The answer I suppose is to have mixed changing rooms / toilets, that way the argument disappears.

Unisex changing rooms with lockable cubicles such as we have locally is the way to go. You should always have the option of not seeing someone's junk, and for other people not to see yours. That deals with the issue of people who don't want to see a particular set of a genitals.

It 'seems' like an answer, doesn't it? But all that does is severely curtail women's current freedoms.

For example, my gym changing room does have some cubicles (which may women prefer to use, rather than strip in the inner, communal area. They still have to walk, naked apart from a towel, to the showers, however. In the 'communal cubicle changing rooms', many women (and I'm one) would be extremely uncomfortable changing in proximity to an area in which men might be naked and many (and I'm one) would be unable any more to use the showers.

I think what many women of the 'I don't see a problem' variety are missing is that (a) there is now a significant number of men declaring themselves trans who have not the least intention of physically transitioning, (b) some of these men are already physically violent towards women, (c) self-id offers predatory men (who may well not be trans at all) to enter women's safe spaces and - as others have already said - know that they cannot be challenged.

Those saying 'some transwomen are already using women's changing rooms and there's been no problem' are closing their minds to the potential threats I've outlined above - it's not those transwomen we're particularly worried about.

The 'what about lesbians' comments are apparently based on the notion that lesbians are as much of a threat to other women as are men. They're not.