To ask if you think it is controversial to say that a person with male genitalia should not be allowed to use changing rooms used by people with vaginas?

[aaarrrggghhhh]

www.theargus.co.uk/news/16334391.trans-women-are-still-males-with-male-genitalia/

The Argus (Brighton newspaper) says that it is controversial for someone to say this:

"many trans women are still males with male genitalia, many are sexually attracted to females, and they should not be in places where females undress or sleep in a completely unrestricted way.”

The definition of controversial is likely to give rise to a public disagreement.

Do you think it is likely that most people would disagree with the statement that people with penises should not use the changing rooms which people with vaginas are using?

What is this shit and why is it being indulged??

It's this shit. Read it and weep.

sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g - that is why I was actually quite shocked by the Argus article - rape culture.

It is apparently now the default social norm according to the Brighton local newspaper that women are not allowed to say that they do not want men in changing rooms and shared sleeping spaces and it is controversial to say that they don't want that.

This is horrifying.

Is it the fact they still have a penis that is the problem or the fact that some of them still fancy women? If it is the later, should Lesbians not be allowed either?

Alternatively, Danielle Muscato
Who is MT????? umm....

No i think most people in RL think that transwomen do not have male genitalia

I think if you asked should transwomen use the female changing rooms most people would say yes...you would get a different answer if you said that the transwoman concerned still had a penis

@marymoosmum - what do you think is the difference with lesbians in this scenario?

Yes, marymoo, The Penis is The Problem.

I've been to places with communal changing areas that just have cubicles. No benches. No penis or vulva on show. I don't see the problem.

I think that most people think that transwomen have had reassignment surgery or hormone treatment that makes their penis non-functioning. The truth is that the vast majority of transwomen have a fully functioning penis.
I cannot accept that they should have access to women's private spaces until surgery has happened.

Transwomen have been quietly using female toilets for many years, sometimes noticed, sometimes not.
However, effectively removing any gatekeeping to this system means anybody then gets access to sex segregated spaces. This is less safe for women and I'd say probably less safe for transwomen too.

@slashlover - well no unsurprisingly as in almost all areas of regulation there are some individual situations which an overarching regulation does not neatly apply to.

Perhaps you could tease out the point your trying to make a bit more?? The point that a rule might not easily apply to all scenarios does not mean that the basic principle of the importance of single sex space to women somehow becomes meaningless on a technicality.

There will I'm sure be some transmen who have undergone medical interventions that means that they have some male physical characteristics. And if they don't have a penis they may indeed look like someone who has a penis. I am not sure what the answer is there - tellingly there is not much talk about transmen in the single sex discussion is there... What would your views be on managing the competing concerns in that scenario?

I don't think that the issue of transmen in itself undermines the penis v vag overarching rule which will apply to the majority of scenarios.

If you have a penis - men’s changing room
If you have a vagina - women’s changing room.

That should be that. Why on Earth are people making it so damn confusing these days.

Pebblespony I suspect you and others may be thinking "can't reasonable people make this work" but if so you may be missing a crucial element simply because YOU are reasonable.

If a man (not a transwoman, just any man) wants to walk in there and walk around naked he has the right. You can't even complain or ask him not to in front of your kids as he might be a 'woman' Just asking him to cover himself is grounds for you to be removed and banned from returning.

There are already men 'enjoying' this right.

It's not just changing rooms as others have pointed out. Imagine a hostel with women only shared rooms and men only shared rooms. The place is empty so lots of options, but a guy turns up and chooses to sleep in there with you. Would you be feeling relaxed?

If a man (not a transwoman, just any man) wants to walk in there and walk around naked he has the right.. You can't even complain or ask him not to in front of your kids as he might be a 'woman' Just asking him to cover himself is grounds for you to be removed and banned from returning

Its not just changing rooms as others have pointed out. Imagine a hostel with women only shared rooms and men only shared rooms. The place is empty so lots of options, but a guy turns up and chooses to sleep in there with you. Would you be feeling relaxed?

^ All of this

I think there are many women - through no fault of their own as TRAs conveniently don't mention the real concerns - who aren't aware of the extent to which Self-ID rights will supercede womens' rights.

They may be envisioning a man with feminine features and dress. But no - as had been said, said, any man can have access. As long as he says he's a woman.

So if he's 6ft and bearded and your teen daughter comes home and says she was uncomfortable as there was a bloke in the changing room whilst she was undressing - she's in the wrong as he will have gained access by saying "I'm a woman".

The Girl Guides Association is a prime example. Boys who say they are girls will share girls rooms on residential trips. & girls' parents are not to be informed. I foresee this as a disaster waiting to happen.

As pp's have pointed out, transwomen have been quietly using female facilities for years now. The fact that all of a sudden non-transitioned and no intention of transitioning Self-IDs are shouting insistently about wanting access to womens' spaces should be ringing alarm bells like mad

I think the question is wrong, so yabu to ask it. It seems that gender and sex are not binary, therefore turning it into a yes/no question basically rules out everything in the middle, from “femme presenting non binary” to a pre-op person.

A better question would be, “how can we ensure that changing facilities and toilets offer privacy for all”.

Ever been to Center Parcs? The changing room there is essentially one giant communal one however everyone has a cubicle and no one has to see swinging dicks or tits.

Yanbu to think it's uncontroversial that they should be sex segregated. The UN and Amnesty also think Yanbu!

JazZy: sex is binary. Gender isn't.

www.facebook.com/784371405097091/posts/862406620626902/

It shouldn't be controversial. No penis, no problem.

@pratchet so how do people who are intersex medically fit into your binary definition of sex?

Intersex people are not ta 'gotcha'. Dont use people as some kind of point scoring system or human shield.

Intersex people are male or female

@pratchet so how do people who are intersex medically fit into your binary definition of sex?

Humans are officially classified as a bipedal species, that is, they walk on two legs. The fact that occasionally some people are born with one, or no legs, does not change this classification.

Plus, as upstart said, the 'what about' appropriation on intersex people for the trans agenda, is just so low.

Human sex is binary. Sorry.

I've been to places with communal changing areas that just have cubicles. No benches. No penis or vulva on show. I don't see the problem.

So what about a female only women's refuge?

I've been to places with communal changing areas that just have cubicles. No benches. No penis or vulva on show. I don't see the problem.

I've been to a few like that, but far more places only have a handful, if any cubicles. Are councils & businesses seriously going to retro-fit everywhere?

It's not going to happen.

What will happen (if the law chages goes through) is that women and girls will simply no longer use those spaces - they will be driven out.