To ask if you think it is controversial to say that a person with male genitalia should not be allowed to use changing rooms used by people with vaginas?

[aaarrrggghhhh]

www.theargus.co.uk/news/16334391.trans-women-are-still-males-with-male-genitalia/

The Argus (Brighton newspaper) says that it is controversial for someone to say this:

"many trans women are still males with male genitalia, many are sexually attracted to females, and they should not be in places where females undress or sleep in a completely unrestricted way.”

The definition of controversial is likely to give rise to a public disagreement.

Do you think it is likely that most people would disagree with the statement that people with penises should not use the changing rooms which people with vaginas are using?

I wouldn't disagree as I don't want to see swinging dick in womens' changing rooms, hospital wards etc. No probs with them letting it all hang out, as long as not in my eyeline.

I'm also concerned about the new GirlGuide regulations in this particular respect. & male staff in Womens' refuges.

I don't know what a femme-presenting non binary people means either. I'd like to know tho.

I am against Self-ID. However, I am not anti-Trans. If you've transitioned then you're a woman, to me. If you haven't then No - you aren't

So no, the post statement isn't controversial

What does 'femme presenting' , 'cis' and 'non-binary' mean please? are they real words and expressions with a fixed meaning or did someone who had delusions of grandeur sit down one day and just invent them for a laugh? A bit like the Emperor with his coat: you know, the one everyone frothed at the mouth to praise and admire when actually it wasn't really there at all?

who makes up these words? is there a special committee for gender related new words? what's their address? who is in charge?

is it still ok to say the word 'man ' and 'woman' or is that a hate-crime now? I call my dd a 'girl' - is that permitted by the committee for gender vocabulary or am I committing thought crime by thinking of her in those terms?

People often say 'just have cubicles' - that means, for example, that women have to (a) walk through a common area in which there might be naked men and (b) have to walk through a common area clad in their towel to go and use the showers.

My issue on this is not with transwomen who are post-op - it's with the ones who retain their penises AND with men who aren't in the least bit trans who would use any opportunity to get into what were previously safe spaces for women.

Please don't say 'it won't happen' - it will, you know.

It's obviously controversial--you've posted to see what strong, differing opinions people have of it, which is by definition controversy.

What you really want is to hear people confirm your opinion. That's fineeveryone looks for support, and it can be good to find a space where you can talk to like-minded peoplebut don't cloak it under false naiveté. That's just annoying.

(And it's not an open inquiry, or you wouldn't be weighing in the way you areyou'd just be saying, "That's interestingdoes anyone disagree?")

It was crazy for them to suggest it was usual/expected. Regardless of whether we think it is right or wrong (and I think it's very wrong) there can be no doubt that nearly everyone in the UK would be shocked to see men strolling into the women/girl's changing room.

I believe that the only reason it got this far is that most people don't know about it. If they have heard anything they will be thinking this is about people who were born with an abnormality that has been corrected with surgery.

Okay, as an aside, I've done some googling - I think (could be wrong) - that a femme-presenting non-binary is someone who does not have a gender identity and identifies as feminine.

So if we apply my original query to this - the question would be what do most think about a person who identifies as this using the women's changing rooms?

I think that most people's only concern would be what bits they have. But my concern after reading the Argus article was maybe I'm wrong? Would most people be concerned about the identity or the genitals?

Tbh its very hard to write this and not seem disingenuous - because its just so bleedingly obvious that most people are concerned about the genitals. But I do really want to know if what I think most people think is wrong.

I'll add something controversial.

As a woman, i would prefer to use the men's swimming pool changing rooms. The women's is always full of young kids and toddlers and nappy changing and noise (Being the grumpy cunt I am whose children have left home). I have always imagined the men's to be a strong silent affair with no eye contact.

I don't care to be honest. I've seen a penis before.

Or I should say, due to leave home for uni in 9 weeks

@Nancydrawn - well you've got me - I have tried to keep my own opinion out but sure not very successfully. Although I did write my previous post trying to pull it back before reading yours.

I'm not sure you got my point about the controversial though (although you may have) - my point is that the Argus's starting point is that the norm is for it to be considered acceptable for people with male genitalia to use women's changing rooms and what is controversial is for someone to disagree with it.

So yes it is controversial - what was interesting for me is what was presented as the controversial aspect. And what I wanted to see if I was out of touch with my understanding of what the norm actually is. Indeed I really didn't expect that I was - but I did want to ask the question.

I have a DD I want her to feel safe where she can change without a "beard" watching her.

If you've got a penis use the men's and if you have a vagina use the women's.

Nobody I know in RL thinks it’s the least bit controversial that penises shouldn’t be in women’s changing room, especially the blokes I know.

Where are all these people who think it’s a good idea?

Ffs if you have a penis you are a bloke. If you have a vagina you are a woman.

You can wear a dress and be as feminine as you like but cocks should stay in the men’s area.

The bloke on page 1 looks an utter massive twat

How can you be non binary and feminine?

WeareGerbil

Who really cares.

I am sure the ordinary person in the street thinks it is not the norm, and completely unacceptable, for men (either with or without penises) to use changing rooms or toilets which people with vaginas make use of.

Honest to God, I am bored rigid by these posts. I really could not give a fucking shit what genitals someone using the changing room has as long as they keep their genitals covered and in their cubicle.

Certainly shouldn't be controversial. I think the average person in the street would be utterly flummoxed by the idea that penises could be allowed in female changing places.

The thing is, it's not about 'changing' - it's about allowing men access to spaces in which women are vulnerable. Anyone who thinks it won't affect them is being naive.

Yep as I suspected (although did try not to prejudice the discussion) - most people would think WTAF about people with male genitalia using people with vagina changing rooms.

Honest to God, I am bored rigid by these posts. I really could not give a fucking shit what genitals someone using the changing room has as long as they keep their genitals covered and in their cubicle

What do you think about allowing people with penises into say, a women's only refuge?

I had no idea what was going on until I started reading the feminist thread and what I read on there is scary and should concern us all but so few seem to have any idea. It seems so simple and straight forward and just sensible to split vagina and penis owners in places where privacy/safety is required but such down to earth good practice is at risk and we all need to educate ourselves. I have said many times it is a case of the emperor's new clothes; we are at risk of the powers that be being bamboozled by a minority and enacting laws that will affect all natal women.

@CheeseGirl4 - thanks for being bored rigid enough to comment.

I'm interested - because you say that you describe yourself as someone who doesn't give a shit - but you then say that you don't give a shit so long as genitals are covered in a cubicle. So I'm inferring from this that you DO give a shit if there are uncovered genitals and they are not in a cubicle?

I suspect there is a whole cohort who would articulate their view as you do - i.e. really don't care - but actually do care if drilled down a bit more.

So I think my totally non scientific deeply flawed study does still show that it is very much NOT the norm to have the male bits in the vag areas.

How do you plan to police this? Are you going to introduce a genitals check before entering changing rooms?

Or would it just be people with exposed genitals that would be affected and not people who kept them covered up with a towel?