To ask if you think it is controversial to say that a person with male genitalia should not be allowed to use changing rooms used by people with vaginas?

[aaarrrggghhhh]

www.theargus.co.uk/news/16334391.trans-women-are-still-males-with-male-genitalia/

The Argus (Brighton newspaper) says that it is controversial for someone to say this:

"many trans women are still males with male genitalia, many are sexually attracted to females, and they should not be in places where females undress or sleep in a completely unrestricted way.”

The definition of controversial is likely to give rise to a public disagreement.

Do you think it is likely that most people would disagree with the statement that people with penises should not use the changing rooms which people with vaginas are using?

Naive?

Women are vulnerable all the time. Not just in a changing room. We are physically weaker. Unless you happen to be a body builder or female boxer etc. But that's not the majority of the female population.

If a man decided to use the female changing rooms right now there would be little I could do about it. Physically that is. Scream and make a scene, yes. Not that I would particularly unless something untoward occured. That wouldn't change I don't think going forward.

Doors that have a 'private' sign on them are still able to be opened. The sign doesn't render the working of the door meaningless.

I don't usually post on this topic, however I am aware of the arguments both ways and agree that a male who simply states that they identify as female should not be allowed in female toilets or changing rooms. However I have a couple of friends who are pre op transexual females (ie they have undergone hormone treatment, have had breast surgery and live as women, although they still have male genitalia - this, according to them, is due to the fact that medicine has not yet advanced sufficiently to be able to get rid of the penis and replace it with a properly functioning vagina.) You would never ever know that either of these women were genetically male unless you asked everyone entering the closed space to whupp their bits out so I think only allowing vaginas would be un-police-able in practice.

cheese

Lucky you to be hired rigid! Hopefully you won’t be a vulnerably rape victim who can’t assume a doctor is a woman or be in a refuge or female prison and realise the man in a dress insisting he’s female is a sex attacker.

You don’t have dds who are forced to share toilets with teenage boys or tents on trips or your dd has trained hard to win a race and is beaten by a bloke identifying as a woman.

If you are a woman and bored rigid shame on you

Not sure you can have surgery to have a proper functioning vagina can you?

How do you plan to police this? Are you going to introduce a genitals check before entering changing rooms?

Well if that is a the attitude, then why both with any sex segregated space at all, whether it be toilets, changing rooms, refuges, whatever?

@Walkingdeadfangirl - I'm not proposing anything. My question is that people think is the current norm. The Argus paper wrote from the point of view that the current norm is that it is acceptable for male genitalia to be in women's changing rooms and it is controversial to disagree with this. The thread is about whether is the controversial position. The majority view on the threat seems to be that it is the male genitalia being allowed which is the controversial view.

What is interesting is that you have also approached the issue the same way as the Argus - as if the notion of excluding male genitals from vagina areas is new and needs to be developed as an approach. It is what is happening right now. So it would be "policed" as it is now. Which I would say is a combination of social norms, company policies and law. There is no new system needed. As said, I find it interesting that your approach is that something new needs to be developed. We're not at Year Zero.

The "how do you police it" think is a red herring really. And again suggests that we don't have a genitals based system at the moment. Of course we do.

@JovialNickname - if your friends were in a common changing room trying to towel down and try I would be astounded (and impressed) if they were able to do so without a risk of their bits being seen.

But the system also does rely on the power of social norms a lot. Hence why the Argus' suggestion of such a dramatic shift in social norms is actually quite significant.

Alex Drummond. Widening the bandwidth of what it means to be a woman instead of widening the bloody bandwidth of what it means to be a man.

The law changes to allow ANY man who declares themselves to be a women into sex segregated spaces. They won't even need a GRC. We can't stop them as not allowed to question it, even if they still present as a man, coz transphobic. No place of business will back up the women because they are held to ransom by the trans lobby.
So how can we stop the liars and abusers taking advantage?

Penis changing room and vulva changing room job done. Go to which you actually have.

many trans women are still males with male genitalia, many are sexually attracted to females, and they should not be in places where females undress or sleep in a completely unrestricted way.

Bizarre to suggest that they shouldn't be allowed because they may still be attracted to females. By that logic lesbians shouldn't be allowed either or bi/pansexual women. Very odd statement.

if your friends were in a common changing room trying to towel down and try I would be astounded (and impressed) if they were able to do so without a risk of their bits being seen

2 towels - job done :-)

Well a lesbian isn’t going to rape you and possibly make you pregnant is she as she doesn’t have a penis.

And no that wasn’t a trans dig just a penis dig. Only penis can rape and impregnate.

@HeckyPeck are you able to think of some reasons why people with vaginas who are lesbians might not pose the risk that people with penises might?

How do you plan to police this? Are you going to introduce a genitals check before entering changing rooms?

Surely it would work the way it does now? People are mostly honest. Or are you saying TW are dishonest and would always try to dishonestly enter female spaces?

@HeckyPeck - chillpizza has given you some clues.

Whether or not you agree with them - how would you describe the reasons for the sex segregated spaces that exist currently? In what ways are they odd or bizarre?

@HeckyPeck - if you're finding it hard to think of arguments for changing room sex segregations - maybe try thinking about shared dormitories at youth hostels - its fairly easy to explain the logic for sex segregation there I think.

Haha, an intact as it were male who is attracted to women imagines he’s a female lesbian? What is this shit and why is it being indulged??

What is this shit and why is it being indulged??

That is an excellent question...

It's worse than that. Young women who are lesbians are being pressured to accept male-bodied people who identify as female as sexual partners. They're told it's transphobic to exclude a potential partner because of their genitalia. Rape culture.

But trans women ARE women, Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

Jeremy Corbyn said so .

Not chasing the "Get me, I'm so right on" vote in any way....

as long as they keep their genitals covered and in their cubicle.

If only men were capable of keeping their genitals covered and in their cubicle there wouldn't be sexual violence towards women and this wouldn't be so much of an issue.

OP, if you had read any of the other 23242 trans posts then you would have seen it always goes the exact same way.

Penis changing room and vulva changing room job done. Go to which you actually have

It's not quite that simple...Aydian Dowling...FTM