To ask if you think it is controversial to say that a person with male genitalia should not be allowed to use changing rooms used by people with vaginas?

[aaarrrggghhhh]

www.theargus.co.uk/news/16334391.trans-women-are-still-males-with-male-genitalia/

The Argus (Brighton newspaper) says that it is controversial for someone to say this:

"many trans women are still males with male genitalia, many are sexually attracted to females, and they should not be in places where females undress or sleep in a completely unrestricted way.”

The definition of controversial is likely to give rise to a public disagreement.

Do you think it is likely that most people would disagree with the statement that people with penises should not use the changing rooms which people with vaginas are using?

The attachment above should be this:

'Funnily'

Trying to pretend sex is not a binary, on Mumsnet of all places, will get you your head in your hands to play with, Frankie.

Plus the intersex community have repeatedly asked that transactivists stop dragging them into their agenda. Please listen to them.

And as a gay woman who is only attracted to women, I abhor being lumped in with trans and intersex people. Sexuality and gender identity are totally different things.

Just off to google 'prejudice in the LGBT community' ...

The second attachment contains this

The issue of domestic violence among lesbian couples may be underreported due to the social construction of gender roles that women are expected to play in society

astonishing claim. I urge any one who can stand it to visit this page the claims made by chumba are dispensed. It takes a very special kind of men's rights activist to believe that male gaslighting, control, violence and threat, conjoined with female fear, socialisation, desire to protect children and indeed desire to remain alive are insignificant factors in the underreporting of male on female crime than any concern about surprising the legal authorities with an abuse report because you are a lesbian couple.

I see this claim made repeatedly by MRA and TRA. It's so disgusting when you look at the extent to which the lives of all women are dictated by male propensity to violent and sexual crime.

Sex is a binary, is based on reproductive role and is immutable.

Any claim otherwise is unsupported, and unsupportable, by evidence.

MoonsAndJunes Google 'William Jaggs' while you are there, and wonder why your Govt is intent on giving convicted sex offenders the legal right to change sex.

@Prawnofthepatriarchy

"Personal attacks disqualify you from civil debate round here"

1 - no personal attacks from me

2 - meet the new boss, same as the old boss ...

'And as a gay woman who is only attracted to women, I abhor being lumped in with trans and intersex people'

Moon: > Just off to google 'prejudice in the LGBT community'

What are you suggesting here? Do you think the poster is bigoted for having her sexual orientation considered the same as a chromosomal disorder? Or compared to a fetish (cross-dressing = trans according to Stonewall) or the bizarre belief that people can have an opposite sex brain in their bodies?

MoonsAndJunes, You might want to check a dictionary too as you may be confused about prejudice.

Are you obtuse or slow? I can cope with either but I like to know which

Your style of discourse is not new to women who find themselves arguing with men who know less about a subject than they do.

I predict that after a couple of rounds with Prawn, you will find yourself 'much too busy to discuss this with bigots'.

@Pratchet

Why do you call posters men when they don't agree with you? Is it your bigotry? There must be a good reason for it? Is it some kind of PA putdown? Is it because you like to imagine you're a champion of women and anyone who disagrees is a man?

A genuine question.

"I predict that after a couple of rounds with Prawn, you will find yourself 'much too busy to discuss this with bigots'."

Ah, you see this as a fight. Why? You're not a brave warrior. You're posting on an internet forum.

I'm waiting for him to reply to my basic question. Maybe you will.

why can we discriminate based on sex (backed by stats) but not race or sexuality or reliousness (when also backed by stats)?

Black men will rob you so give them a curfew.

Single parents will neglect their children so remove them from their care.

Poor people will take drugs so benefits should be in vouchers.

Gay men will abuse children so don't allow them to interact.

Muslims will blow shit up.

Disabled people will cost and employer money.

Women will take time off work for maternity leave. and then want flexi time or reduced hours.

All of these are backed by fact and statistics. Do you agree with treating these people differently or is it only 'keep men away' that you support? If so, what is the difference?

Why do you call posters men when they don't agree with you?

I don't.

Ah, you see this as a fight

Absolutely. You are not in the unfortunate position of having to battle to hold on to your rights and your daughter's rights. If you were, you would see it as a fight too. Also, heads up: look up metaphor in the dictionary.

Why should convicted sex offenders such as William Jaggs get the legal right to access women only spaces and services?

Black men will rob you so give them a curfew

This is shockingly racist. Do you actually believe 'black men will rob you'? This is appalling. Please withdraw this statement.

By the way, I am Pratchet.

Ive just read the rest of your list. That's a lot of extremely offensive views you hold. I think you need help.

Males commit >95 per cent of sexual crime and >90 per cent of violent crime. There are only two groups here: so the figures for females are correspondingly small.

It is an extraordinary stretch to imagine that the reason for this is nothing to do with them being male, and that therefore it is unkind to keep them out of female and child spaces on the grounds of their maleness.

Even the UN and Amnesty note this and recommend sex specific spaces.

Oh my gosh I just saw that you compared male sexual and violent crime to maternity leave, and disability accessibility needs. You ok, hun?

@Frankiebern

Just because somebody of the opposite sex is sharing a changing room with somebody of;the opposite sex does not mean they would assault that person sexually,if that is what you (OP) are suggesting.

I am suggesting/stating the obvious it makes it possible and creates an opportunity where it would not otherwise exist. It is also a question of dignity and privacy.

Sexual preference has nothing to do with enforced sexual behaviour,hence what is between one's legs isn't really relevant

It's relevant in that it is the penis that is used for rape.

The majority of men,transgendered or not,are not rapists or sexual deviants

How am I meant to do who is in the majority or the minority?

To be fair, any male who is so entitled he thinks women should suspend experience and statistical likelihood and drop their boundaries for him, is actually the sort of man who should be excluded.

The comment about black men was made by someone to show their argument that it may be unfair to take one whole category and then say and thus people with a penism ust be excluded from the oxford St changing rooms where 13 year old girls change clothes because some, but not all, trans women with want to ogle the girls. So I can see why that point is being made but there is just too much risk if we all all self declaring. if instead htey follow English law and get their certificate then we can more easily accept the risk.

It is deeply racist to appropriate racism in that way.

There is no possibly way to detach male violence statistics from males.

Why should convicted sex offenders such as William Jaggs get the legal right to access women only spaces and services?

@Frankiebern

Hi Frankie - I am the OP.

I've got a pretty good understanding of my point.