To ask if you think it is controversial to say that a person with male genitalia should not be allowed to use changing rooms used by people with vaginas?

[aaarrrggghhhh]

www.theargus.co.uk/news/16334391.trans-women-are-still-males-with-male-genitalia/

The Argus (Brighton newspaper) says that it is controversial for someone to say this:

"many trans women are still males with male genitalia, many are sexually attracted to females, and they should not be in places where females undress or sleep in a completely unrestricted way.”

The definition of controversial is likely to give rise to a public disagreement.

Do you think it is likely that most people would disagree with the statement that people with penises should not use the changing rooms which people with vaginas are using?

It just flummoxes me because how can we simultaneously tell young girls, men are dangerous, be careful don't show too much skin, men don't have the right to show their penises to you without your consent, its indecent exposure and sexual harassment.*

And then say... It doesn't matter if someone has a penis if they are changing next to you because they cant change in the mens because uncomfortable.

THIS!

Women are constantly told to 'keep themselves safe'. But only in the context of curtailing their own behaviour. So don't walk home alone, don't walk down that particular ally, don't wear a short skirt, don't drink too much. You never know who is out there, pervs on every corner, what did you expect.....

As soon as women take steps to keep themselves safe which might involve a male not being able to do exactly what he wants, suddenly, according to some on these threads, she is 'prejudiced'. It's only a penis, what's the problem, do you really think someone is going to rape you in a changing room......

Fuck that noise.

Sorry the first two paragraphs of my last post were quotes.

YANBU

@LyndseyKola
Trans women are women.
Being a woman doesn’t relate to your sex at birth or your genitalia.

• Transwomen are (according to stonewall)

Male transsexuals and Male transvestites (erotic transvestites gets sexually excited by the dressing, a social transvestite simply feels more comfortable in those clothes)

• a human's sex at birth will always be their sex. Do you think humans can change sex? How?

Exactly Pratchet, you cannot alter your XX or XY chromosomes.

ttps:www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/08/transgender-woman-raped-girl-before-transition-male-prison-davina-ayrton

Due to the self id bill, these types of attacks could well increase, women have a right to be concerned. As somebody pointed out, men would not have to put on a dress and make up, they could enter a woman's space, say that they are identifying as Female that day, and attack.

Being a woman doesn’t relate to your sex at birth or your genitalia.

Okay...

Woman : adult human female.
Female: of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.

There's another thread around at the moment if you want to try to come up with a coherent redefinition of 'woman' but until someone does most women are probably inclined to stick with the current definitions, thanks.

Very interesting article, this is what biological women are against, being shouted down, and made to be put back in their box, by TRAs

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/02/02/trans-identified-male-verbally-attacks-rose-mcgowan-barnes-noble-talk/

Not all changing rooms are like that. NACRALT

Changing rooms are not going to change overnight. It's taken long enough to get disabled changing facilities and baby changing facilities in place, some of the time .

Men with an intact penis do not belong in an area where women are likely to be undressing.

Any female who isn't worried personally needs to remember that by agreeing to this they are also agreeing to it on behalf of women who:

Very tiny - less than 5' tall and under 8 stone
Very frail - weak from a medical condition
Are from restrictive religious groups
Have suffered rape or sexual trauma
Are elderly
Have severe gynaecological problems needing the use of medical devices
Very young and not able to speak up or protest as they are not yet on social media or aware of the news but will live with the consequences of this change.

I personally know a female in each of those categories and utterly reject the idea that that people with intact male genitalia (men) should be able to use the changing facilities provided for women.

If individuals wishing to transition have had surgery and a GRC, fair enough.

Women are constantly told to 'keep themselves safe'. But only in the context of curtailing their own behaviour. So don't walk home alone, don't walk down that particular ally, don't wear a short skirt, don't drink too much. You never know who is out there, pervs on every corner, what did you expect.....

As soon as women take steps to keep themselves safe which might involve a male not being able to do exactly what he wants, suddenly, according to some on these threads, she is 'prejudiced'. It's only a penis, what's the problem, do you really think someone is going to rape you in a changing room......

Exactly Moonkissed

^^ Well said.

"I've thought a bit more about what my phobia is "

Plain old sexism then.

Its not controversial at all in the real world. Its a completely normal way of thinking. Men/boys (ie people who have a penis) change in the mens changing room. Women/girls (ie people who have a vagina) change in the womens channging room.

I think it’s tedious the way it’s bought up 30,000 times a day on here. And I think the moral panic could be reduced exponentially if some of the people on Mumsnet actually got out and met some trans people.

I also firmly believe that once transphobia is viewed as seriously as other forms of discrimination by wider society, Mumsnet will hang their heads in shame at the carry on they allow on here at the moment.

I think it’s tedious the way it’s bought up 30,000 times a day on here. And I think the moral panic could be reduced exponentially if some of the people on Mumsnet actually got out and met some trans people.

Maybe just scroll past in future then? If you aren't concerned then stay off these threads.

I work in the arts so have met more trans people than the average person, I'd say. I don't want those with penises in women's spaces. Funnily enough, the ones I know understand that. It's just the vocal minority who insist. They should be ignored.

No one should hang their head in shame when trying to keep a vulnerable group safe. Abused women have a right to safe spaces with no penises in them. Not sure why anyone would think they should be forced to accept intact males in their spaces.

Male privilege seems to be the answer. I thought we junked that shit in the 70s.

Best bet is to keep some emergency garden clippers in your bag, y'know, the small ones? Incase you need to do some emergency penis trimming while in the changing rooms?

The only thing Mumsnet will be hanging their head in shame about in years to come, will be the censoring of the language of posters trying to defend vulnerable women and girls.

My local leisure only has unisex swim changing cubicles. No more girls’ and womens changing area.

I strongly dislike this.

I think it’s tedious the way it’s bought up 30,000 times a day on here.

Interesting how you can acknowledge so very many women's concerns and dismiss them, all in the same sentence.

I think the moral panic could be reduced exponentially if some of the people on mumsnet actually got out and met some trans people
I don't need to meet trans people to know that I don't want my daughter to have to get changed in front of a biological male, thank you. I'm not sure why you think meeting trans people would change that opinion?
Loopytiles my pool has a unisex changing village, so far haven't noticed any problems, to be fair.

Sounds good to me Loopytiles.

@duskymauve - but I do know transpeople. Who are lovely. And I know lots of men who don't identify as trans who are also very nice and not remotely threatening. Does that mean that it is misandry from me to want to exclude them? And to be clear - its not just men who I don't know that I don't want to change with. I really don't want my lovely male neighbour in my changing room and I can't imagine he'd want to be there either.

This has nothing to do with the nature of transgender people except that the point is that transgender are no different to other people.

This is what confounds me - what I am demanding is equality of treatment of transgender people. They should be treated exactly the same as anyone else with a particular physical appendage.

@chumbawumbawumba

"plain old sexism then" - how so?

Are you really saying that it is sexist to not want to have male genitalia in the same room as me while I am changing? Talk me through then. Because that's quite the critique of my position.

'Moral panic' is one of the buzz phrases

"I've thought a bit more about what my phobia is "

Plain old sexism then.

It takes a certain mindset to understand that men are a threat to women, and routinely injure them, but claim that women's reaction is the bit that's sexist.

A mindset that has no business near women and children.

I think the moral panic could be reduced exponentially if some of the people on mumsnet actually got out and met some trans people

I know plenty of trans people, thank-you very much. For most of my adult life (in the LGBT community) I have mixed with transsexuals, shared toilets etc and had no problems.

Then the wording changed from 'transsexual' to 'transgender' or trans and the people who came under this umbrella increased exponentially to include cross-dressers, anyone who didn't conform to gender stereotypes etc. Then came the idea that you didn't need to change your body - If you identified as female, your penis was just a 'ladydick' that women should expect in their spaces (and, for lesbians, in our bodies). That rather than being treated as sort of 'honorary' women, transwomen were literally female and no different to women. Misogynistic men and predators spotted an opportunity and jumped on the bandwagon.

I have transsexual friends who are horrified by what is going on and there are promininent transsexuals sticking their neck out to oppose the agenda being put forward, supposedly in their name:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/self-identification-will-not-help-transgender-people-n2pm780wx?shareToken=efc7d0347bb80e1f8789b79246549da6

Right now, lesbians are staging a protest at London Pride. This isn't because they've never met any trans people and are just ignorant conservatives (with a small c) who don't know what is going on. They know exactly what is going on:

twitter.com/hashtag/GetTheLOut?src=hash