To ask if you think it is controversial to say that a person with male genitalia should not be allowed to use changing rooms used by people with vaginas?

[aaarrrggghhhh]

www.theargus.co.uk/news/16334391.trans-women-are-still-males-with-male-genitalia/

The Argus (Brighton newspaper) says that it is controversial for someone to say this:

"many trans women are still males with male genitalia, many are sexually attracted to females, and they should not be in places where females undress or sleep in a completely unrestricted way.”

The definition of controversial is likely to give rise to a public disagreement.

Do you think it is likely that most people would disagree with the statement that people with penises should not use the changing rooms which people with vaginas are using?

Good lord! Those lesbians have been told to remove the signs that say lesbian = female homosexual!!

Fuck this shit.

I'm a lesbian and was slagged off by a trans woman for questioning why she was on the lesbian side of the site. The response:
'FYI It isn't the lesbian side, anyone can use it because all LGBTIQ people are on a spectrum including pan people so I'll stay where I am thanks'.
So that wouldn't mean on the side where biological men with penises want to stick them into biological women with vaginas then? No, because men wouldn't put up with that shit.
It's totally a sexual thing.

And as a gay woman who is only attracted to women, I abhor being lumped in with trans and intersex people. Sexuality and gender identity are totally different things.

Look at the bbc news pride page: all the top six or seven pics of males in 'women's' clothing. No idea if trans, drag or what. Impossible me to know anything except makes in stereotypical female 'drag'. Then a pic of some gay blokes. Then way down a bbunch of women but oh look they're draped around the focus of the picture, a man, Sadiq khan.

I imagine that the Argus will report this as:

Some non-men made the controversial statement today that lesbians are female homosexuals. Uncontroversially some men said this was incorrect.

Shame on Pride erasing lesbians.

as a gay woman who is only attracted to women. That used to be the very definition of a lesbian, didn’t it? Until the men decided to get in on the act... It would almost be funny if it wasn’t so fucking surreal.

Anyone without female genitalia should not be using a female changing room or showers or women only facilities. That's my view.

If women were trying to be gay men we would be reminded of the AIDS crisis and how being closeted caused men to die and that being out and gay is a right for men who have sex with men, and that women/ heterosexual couples wouldn't be able to at all understand because they hadn't experienced that oppression.
In other words, we'd have those efforts rejected.
I refuse to accept any biological man is a lesbian until he has chopped off his penis and undergone full sex transformation.
I don't wish to have sex with ANY man with a penis, even if they wear a dress.
I'm not a source of fetish fantasy, and my identity is something I will stand up for. Pride should hang their heads in shame. Theresa May and cabinet are utter cowards for not addressing what is common sense, in fear of rejecting a few men's sexual desires.
And FWIW I know two trans women who are utterly respectful of the safety and wishes of biological women, and who would not dream of demanding the same rights to women only spaces, because that is understandable and acceptable from a risk point of view.

And they don't use ridiculous words like 'cis' to refer to biological sex.

Just the one - I don’t think that’s quite right about women trying to be gay men. There’s been a trans man on the cover of Pride.

As for the OP I have got tangled up in double negatives.

What I think is:
Most people are minded to be tolerant and / or supportive of diversity in sexuality / gender / sex identification diversity and divergence.

Most people I know are if the view ‘not my business as long as it isn’t harming anyone else’. Most people I know are fully accepting of the ‘transexuals’ I know (Post op transitioned ) as women.

Most people I know dig their heels in when asked to accept some of the demands of the TRA. Do not believe that pre-operative people identifying as women and not intending to have re-assignment surgery should be able to speak for women or be in women—only settings such as changing rooms,prisons, or conducting intimate examinations such as smear tests where a female nurse has been requested.

Most people have no difficulty accepting the principle of gender dysmorphia, but most people I know are sceptical (to say the least) about so many people, especially teens, ‘indentifying as’ and making significant demands as a result.

@Datun

And it takes a certain mindset (absolute stupidity) to argue such a strawman as well as then suggest that anyone who thinks this should not be allowed near women or children.

Women routinely injure children. Women routinely injure other women. The most vulnerable group in the UK are lesbians.

@aaarrrggghhhh

Sexism is prejudice based on sex. That's exactly what you're doing.

What other forms of segregation do you support? My black son (adopted) is much more likely to commit all kinds of crimes (except white collar) than my white (bio) son. I guess you support curfews for the black people. Ban Muslims from flights?

Why do we have sex segregated spaces at all, Chumba? We have them because men commit the huge majority (90%+) of sex and violent crimes and we know that women and girls are at risk from men in settings where they are naked or otherwise vulnerable. Keeping men out of those spaces, regardless of how they may identify, is essential for women to engage in public life.

Men are excluded because they are the risk factor women and girls are facing. This is true regardless of how they identify. It is not discriminatory to safeguard.

As Datun so rightly says:

It takes a certain mindset to understand that men are a threat to women, and routinely injure them, but claim that women's reaction is the bit that's sexist.

Bringing race into the debate suggests the bottom of the barrel is being scraped, btw.

"Bringing race into the debate suggests the bottom of the barrel is being scraped, btw."

Why? Racial profiling = bad. Sex profiling = safeguarding.

The fact that you don't like any protected characteristic other than 'men' being used says a lot about you.

My lesbian niece is far more likely to abuse her partner than either of my straight sons.

I understand that you like to be brave and feministy from behind a keyboard but an explanation of why statistics are good for some forms of segregation and "safeguarding" but not others would be fantastic.

Good lord, Chumba. Have you never heard of safeguarding? Men as a class are statistically overwhelmingly likely to be the assailant in any violent and/or sex crime involving a woman. That's why they're excluded from women only spaces.

The fact that women, rarely, can be violent too doesn't provide a gotcha moment, or suggest we should ignore the epidemic of rape and sexual assaults committed by men on women.

Race is a spectrum. Sex is a binary. Saying no men in women only spaces is not bigotry.

Oh, and by the way, your comment; I understand that you like to be brave and feministy from behind a keyboard is immensely patronising and reveals that you know nothing about me.

I talk about this all the time to flesh and blood people. I talk about male violence and entitlement. I point out that transwomen retain a male pattern of offending. I talk about lesbian erasure.

I have volunteered for direct action.

And I attend feminist meetings in committed defiance of the trans lobby's hash tag nodebate. For an over 50 in poor health that's a big deal. Takes ovaries of steel.

There sure as hell is a debate and women on Mumsnet are having it.

"I talk about this all the time to flesh and blood people. I talk about male violence and entitlement. I point out that transwomen retain a male pattern of offending. I talk about lesbian erasure."

Can you come to my dinner party? You sound great fun.

"I attend feminist meetings in committed defiance of the trans lobby's hash tag nodebate. "

You sound funner by the minute. Doesn't sound very 'debatey' though.

"Takes ovaries of steel."

Umm....

I think your feminist meetings should address basic biological function. Maybe you mean you're somehow really brave and strong and clever to go and talk with a lot of people who agree with you.

Just because somebody of the opposite sex is sharing a changing room with somebody of;the opposite sex does not mean they would assault that person sexually,if that is what you (OP) are suggesting.Sexual preference has nothing to do with enforced sexual behaviour,hence what is between one's legs isn't really relevant.There isn't a recognised history of problems in Nordik countries where same sex saunas are de riguer so I personally don't see a problem with it.I am fairly sure there are many straight people on this forum who have shared a changing room or communal shower with a gay person of the same gender but didn't find that person giving them unwarranted or overt sexual attention.The majority of men,transgendered or not,are not rapists or sexual deviants,but they are not newsworthy to Daily Mail or The Sun readers eh?

Lesbian Erasure
Now there's a cover band I'd love to see!

Sex is not binary
You are a silly billy if you believe so

Personal attacks disqualify you from civil debate round here, Chumba. Plus your arguments are flimsy, to say the least. Let's all look out for the lesbian murder figures that dwarf the male ones...

Honestly, your claims are just not worth my time today. But your posts are illuminating to any lurkers, so there's that.

Lesbians are the group most likely to be abused by their partners

This is a lie touted by men's rights activists and promulgated by the dodgy, agenda ridden editors of Wikipedia. See attached file.

What not a lie is this: 'Men as a class are statistically overwhelmingly likely to be the assailant in any violent and/or sex crime involving a woman'. See any record of violent and sexual crime from any country from any time period anywhere in the world.

This is despite the fact that much violent and sexual abuse goes unconvicted, unprosecuted and even unrecorded due to sexism, fear, control techniques, gaslighting and female socialisation.

How have I managed to get through nearly 50 years of life without having been 'affected' by this non 'issue' ? I must have been in thousands of changing rooms and cannot see the problem. I sometimes shop in 'long tall sally' for taller women (me) and there have always been trans women in store.
We share changing rooms AND funilly enough, we all have separate cubicles OBVIOUSLY (what do people think? That everyone parades around naked?).