To ask if you think it is controversial to say that a person with male genitalia should not be allowed to use changing rooms used by people with vaginas?

[aaarrrggghhhh]

www.theargus.co.uk/news/16334391.trans-women-are-still-males-with-male-genitalia/

The Argus (Brighton newspaper) says that it is controversial for someone to say this:

"many trans women are still males with male genitalia, many are sexually attracted to females, and they should not be in places where females undress or sleep in a completely unrestricted way.”

The definition of controversial is likely to give rise to a public disagreement.

Do you think it is likely that most people would disagree with the statement that people with penises should not use the changing rooms which people with vaginas are using?

I predict an almighty backlash and ultimately all this will be worse for "genuine" transgender people - whose lives must be fucking hard enough already.

Totally this, there’s going to be an absolutely MASSIVE backlash, that will be felt by LGB as well, I’ve thought this for a long time. Also come across several transsexuals who are equally concerned.

At this stage I’m not convinced that the extreme activists yelling ‘transwomen are women’ and ‘my penis is female’ aren’t in fact TRYING to whip up ‘transphobia’. They can’t actually believe that their current tactics are going to increase public acceptance and help transsexuals.

@Prawnofthepatriarchy - I know! That's why I read the article and I had to pause and think am I completely out of touch - has there been this complete change in social norms that I have completely missed!

@IAmLurkacus - this is what I think. There will be some awful bashing somewhere of a transexual woman who's been quietly using the loos for years and it will be horrible.

38% per cent of Australians voted against gay marriage for example. So they'll go apeshit guaranteed. Then add to that all the men (and I say men because it is them who are far more likely to have a physically violent reaction) who are actually normally quite tolerant but will go apeshit about strange male genitalia being in the same room as their wives, sisters, daughters and you have created the perfect environment to increase violence against transexuals.

No one wins with this approach.

I think focusing on genitalia is the wrong way to go about this, and is wildly insensitive to trans issues.

I repeat my question: do any of you who are worried about women's safety actually know ANY trans people? Because I think there is a lot of myth-building going on here.

Can anyone point out any facts that state there are men out there who "self-identify" as "Brenda" on Tuesday to go and rape a woman in a swimming pool changing room, then go back to being "Barry" on Wednesday?

Because this sounds like transphobia to me.

I agree that women need safe spaces but most women who are sexually assaulted are done so by someone they know. Single sex changing rooms won't make women much more safe - addressing toxic masculinity will.

Can anyone point out any facts that state there are men out there who "self-identify" as "Brenda" on Tuesday to go and rape a woman in a swimming pool changing room, then go back to being "Barry" on Wednesday?

Because this sounds like transphobia to me.

And so it would, if anyone had said anything like this. Nobody has.

Can you not apply your mind to the fact that self-ID creates a golden opportunity for violent men who want to commit sexual offences, from voyeurism to rape? Nobody is saying that these men are trans. People are saying that reducing the gatekeeping to the point where it is almost nonexistent makes it far too easy for these dangerous men to get access to women and girls in places where they are particularly vulnerable.

There is a clash of rights here. Trans people have rights, of course, But what women and girls want (and I think the majority of men too) is for the rights of the far larger class affected to be taken into account, which had started to look as if it wasn't going to happen until very recently. It can't be beyond the wit of humankind to resolve this in a way that's fair and acceptable to both groups.

How can you define and therefore address toxic masculinity at the same time as believing that femininity and masculinity have no correspondence with biological sex.

Not controversial at all. Makes total sense and anyone who says otherwise has an agenda.
I often wonder why the majority of trans people are M to F. I think there is certainly a sexual/fetish element of it, as opposed to simply a desire to be another gender. Otherwise, women would be queueing in masses to become men, given that male advantage offers a lot more than being a woman.

@TigerJoy - but transgender people don't have a single personality? Just because I know some nice transgender people who are nice and not violent doesn't mean that no transgender people are violent?? I know lots of very nice men who I know wouldn't be violent to women. So what? I still don't want men I don't know in single sex spaces.

As for single sex spaces not making it "much more" safe - what sort of safety are you to happy to compromise on then? I would quite like to keep women as safe as possible please.

As for addressing toxic masculinity. Yes please. Do you actually think that we are saying that shouldn't be done?

Single sex changing rooms won't make women much more safe

Removing them will make us LESS safe, however.

Question: why are there single sex changing rooms in the first place?

Yet again people are confusing gender issues with being a sexual predator.

If you have a penis then you should have the good manners to stay out of female only spaces.

I don't think it's controversial to expect female only spaces to be just that.

If you have the operation, then I'm sure most women would be fine with you sharing the space.

controversial
kɒntrəˈvəːʃ(ə)l
adjective
giving rise or likely to give rise to controversy or public disagreement

controversy
ˈkɒntrəvəːsi,kənˈtrɒvəsi
noun
prolonged public disagreement or heated discussion.

So yes, of course it's controversial.

So yes, of course it's controversial.

Not to anyone who understands the issues. It's very clear cut, actually.

Tiger

Afraid to say that insensitive as it might be to trans people the male penis is responsible for raping women. Millions of women world wide have been raped by a penis.

That’s a fact and if it upsets a tiny minority who feel this is irrelevant or let’s say irrelevant to them then tough.

Facts are facts.

Not even the slightest bit controversial. If you have a trans person who has had their penis removed that lives as a women ( not really sure what that means but still) dresses and has name changed by law then please feel free to access women’s areas.

If you are ‘living as a woman or identify as a woman but still have your penis sorry no you can’t bloody well enter women’s safe areas.

Fight for your own corner don’t try and bully your way into ours.

See the sad thing is by a small vocal sinister minority trying to stamp on women’s rights it tars all of the other decent sensible trans people with the same brush.

@Elasticity said: "Self ID is a different issue imo and people are conflating a male who present clearly as male wanting to use the female changing room by saying they are female with a committed trans female who public displays in as female of a way as possible relative to their current state of transition i.e. in female dress, makeup etc"

So now they're trans-female, & not just transwomen anymore?

See you give them an inch and they take a mile....

Will finish reading now, but felt I had to point that out. Did anyone else notice the change in language/terms?

Is it a big issue? Most changing rooms (gym and clothes shopping) I’ve been in have been communal, with lockable cubicles for those who needed them. I assume this was to make it easier for families, so that Mums or Dads could go in with their children.

I don't think there's any real debate here.

"Can anyone point out any facts that state there are men out there who "self-identify" as "Brenda" on Tuesday to go and rape a woman in a swimming pool changing room, then go back to being "Barry" on Wednesday?

Because this sounds like transphobia to me.

And so it would, if anyone had said anything like this. Nobody has.

Can you not apply your mind to the fact that self-ID creates a golden opportunity for violent men who want to commit sexual offences, from voyeurism to rape? Nobody is saying that these men are trans. People are saying that reducing the gatekeeping to the point where it is almost nonexistent makes it far too easy for these dangerous men to get access to women and girls in places where they are particularly vulnerable."

You literally describing my point - the claims that violent men will put on a skirt and due to lack of gatekeeping will get access to vulnerable women.

Everyone seems to be saying the same thing over and over again.

I'm bowing out of this discussion.

@TigerJoy

I think focusing on genitalia is the wrong way to go about this, and is wildly insensitive to trans issues

The reason sex segregated spaces exist is because of genitalia.

Men rape with their genitals.

Why should people with penises be in places for people with vulvas?

Oh dear. Well, if you can bring yourself to, look up Lisa Hauxwell. That might be the case you're looking for. There are others, referenced on this thread. There was a very odd case recently where a dead man was found in a soil pipe leading into a woman's toilet. Don't know if it was ever discovered why he was there, but there's one obvious surmise as to why. Voyeurism does seem to increase when public spaces become unisex.

You literally describing my point - the claims that violent men will put on a skirt and due to lack of gatekeeping will get access to vulnerable women.

Actually, no - I don't think many men will "put on a skirt due to a lack of gatekeeping" to "get access to vulnerable women.

Self-id means they don't have to 'put on a skirt' at all.

Is it a big issue? Most changing rooms (gym and clothes shopping) I’ve been in have been communal, with lockable cubicles for those who needed them. I assume this was to make it easier for families, so that Mums or Dads could go in with their children.

Gyms. Women's refuges. Women's prisons. Women's dorms in hostels. Women's wards in hospitals.

Yes, it IS a "big issue". Start thinking about the potential.

Transgender women have a male 'gender identity'. Transgender men have female 'gender identity'. None ever has, or ever will, change sex.