To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

Has anyone ever raped someone with their ear?

You're just sore because Datun handed you your arse in very short order, Dandy.

I'm just shocked at the number of people on mumsnet who have never seen a penis

That's the same as the TRA "Gotcha" argument that almost everyone has a gender neutral toilet in their home.

Completely ignoring the difference between males you're comfortable with & consent to being around, and total strangers).

(Oh and I'm a lesbian, I've never seen an adult penis & I don't want to, thanks).

Well, the Victorians were rather incensed by a glimpse of ankle, TheGolden

When I was 11 I hadn't seen any penises in a sexual context. Within my first term of walking alone to the bus stop to go to secondary school, I'd been flashed at by no fewer than three separate perverts, all of whom seemed to get their kicks from exposing themselves to young girls who were just starting to go out on their own. I was in school uniform on all three occasions and they took place in quiet streets with few other people around. There are a LOT of men who specifically get a kick out of exposing their genitals to young girls - children. We shouldn't forget this either. It's not a weird rarity - it's common. It happened to LOADS of my friends too.

Arrange the world to suit those with Y chromosomes, in short, and if you object you’re “outdated”.
They can cover up when they like. They can expose themselves when they like. They get to choose, you don’t.
Internalised misogyny doing quite a lot of the heavy lifting in building this warped view, I think

Gorgon, I would say that indecent exposure has happened to every woman I know, almost invariably as pre adolescent girls.
Objecting to this apparently makes you a pearl clutcher. Better that than a misogynists tool, and I use the word tool in more than one sense here

Nana I agree with you. I didn't want to make the claim that it has happened to literally everyone, because that would inevitably make some one pop up to say that it had never happened to them.

What does horrify me - even more in retrospect - is that almost all of the sexual harassment I've experienced in my life happened between the ages of 11-16.

I still get catcalls and wolf whistles but it's nothing compared to the absolute onslaught of flashing, wanking, comments, shouting, groping, leering and following that took place during my teenage years.

For the avoidance of doubt - I was not an especially attractive teenage girl, at all, and my school uniform was about as far from being 'sexy' as you could imagine.I was OBVIOUSLY a young, awkward child.

Please don't twist my words into something they are not. It's a pretty poor use of your time, and seems rather manipulative.

Great. I'm happy to hear you are perfectly willing for women to talk about why they don't want to see penises in intimate spaces.

I doubt there are very many women, in the country, who haven't been flashed at, at some point or another.

It seems to be a pastime that some males are very fond of.

Particularly when the person being flash at is vulnerable, like girls in school uniform.

Being able to do it legitimately, without the women having recourse, would be a gift, for a certain type of man.

Being able to tell the women that they are pearl clutching prudes, is just another way to stick it to those women.

If it's being used for something untoward then I totally agree. But otherwise it's a bid part. Like an ear.

Then your daughter should not have a problem using the men's room, surely?

Please don't twist my words into something they are not. It's a pretty poor use of your time, and seems rather manipulative.

It's you who seems manipulative. Telling women to mind how they come across when they don't want penises in women's spaces? I don't think you have a clue how you come across, do you?

I want to remind people of Stonewall's definition of trans:

Trans

An umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth.
Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, crossdresser, genderless, agender, nongender, third gender, two-spirit, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman,trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois.

Now I never used to have a problem sharing facilities with people who back in the day called themselves transsexuals - people with significant dysphoria about their sexed body, which they conceptualized using metaphors like "born in the wrong body" (and most were clear that this was a metaphor - the closest they could come to explaining their feelings).

But note that the Stonewall definition is far wider than that, and includes cross-dressers. So those of you advocating for penises in women's spaces (and I can think of three swimming pools near me which have no cubicles, only shared, open plan single sex changing rooms) - you aren't just advocating for me to share spaces where I am naked with transsexuals who haven't got far enough up the waiting list to have "the op" yet. You're advocating for me to share spaces where I am naked with fetishistic cross dressers.

And the answer to that one is no.

It seems to be a pastime that some males are very fond of.

Particularly when the person being flash at is vulnerable, like girls in school uniform.

Being able to do it legitimately, without the women having recourse, would be a gift, for a certain type of man.

Being able to tell the women that they are pearl clutching prudes, is just another way to stick it to those women.

YY.

In which case, your child can use the gents! If body parts are immaterial, and no one cares.

This. FFS! Why are only certain people's feelings worthy of consideration?

Happy to be a pearl clutcher.
Better than a doormat any day of the fucking week.

Happy to be a pearl clutcher.
Better than a doormat any day of the fucking week.

Absolutely!

"Oh you know how keen he is on you, you should just sleep with him and stop being such a prude!"

"He only wanted to put his hand inside your bra, you didn't need to slap him like that. You're such a prude sometimes!"

"It was only a photo up your skirt, he didn't touch you or anything. It's so prudish to be concerned about stuff like this"

"It's only a penis FFS, don't be such a prude"

I swear to God I'm getting old. I don't understand non binary and trans feminine (which is apparently not transwoman?) and genderless and non gender and all that. I understand man, woman, straight, gay, bi, transman and transwoman. I understand a man or woman who might not look or act the way we typically expect a man or woman to look or act, while still being a man or woman, or trans person. I even understand thinking that gender stereotypes are bullshit and not wishing to behave in line with them. I get all that.

I don't get all the weird complicated labels for what I always thought were fairly straightforward circumstances. Like my friend, the woman with short hair, a science-based job and a wife. Or my old pal, the man who liked to wear women's lingerie. Or any number of people I know; women who don't look or act stereotypically feminine, men who don't look or act stereotypically masculine.

I don't know, these don't seem difficult concepts to understand but I read all the terms and apparently they're all going to be non binary, genderless, genderqueer, transfeminine (I guess that's not transwoman?) and the rest of it and I don't know, it just seems needlessly complicated. Can you really no longer just be a man or a woman who rejects gender stereotypes and does their own thing?

Well said Olenna. It's quite horrifying.

I have some jolly nice pearls actually. Not worn them for years. I may go and have a quick clutch now

Pearl clutchers of the world unite!

I don’t understand this desperation by some people to pretend perverts don’t exists. The gropers, the flashers, the ‘state and you while I touch myself fairly obviously’ guys. Never mind the space invaders who like to sit too close to you on the train even if there are a hundred free seats.

It happens less now older and uglier. But there was a time in my twenties that every night out involved being inappropriately touched or intimidated by a man who clearly enjoyed my discomfort.

This is the kind of thing that single sex spaces protect you from. Sometimes the women’s loo is the only place to run away for a bit without the fear of being mauled.

Yes but misssusan if we talk about that then it might prevent the enactment of the golden rule; the people with Y chromosomes must, at all times and in all circumstances, get their own way and have access to what they want.
Get with the programme, pearl clutcher

I swear to God I'm getting old. I don't understand non binary and trans feminine (which is apparently not transwoman?)

The only difference is that these biological males say they don't have a gender. But like to present "feminine"

OP - Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.