To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

Your comment brought back some nasty memories, Olenna. Ace comment. Bad memories.

Like Gorgon I was flashed at numerous times before I hit my teens. Those crimes seldom or ever lead to arrests, let alone convictions. They're not even investigated generally, I'd guess. They are really distressing, frightening and common.

Of course men will abuse Self-ID to expose themselves to children. Anyone who thinks they won't knows nothing about men.

Prawn - sorry. I've had all of them said to me in some form or another, I suspect most posters have.

I haven't been flashed at, but I know many of my friends were (we were told not to walk home from school through the park - apparently removing the flasher from the park wasn't seen as a viable option, we just had to go the long way round instead )

I have had a number of encounters with threatening men, where I have taken refuge in the Ladies in order to try and get rid of them. Again, I suspect most poster have had the same experience at least once in their life

Just in case posters on AIBU are not aware, the government have just launched a public consultation on self-ID.

AynRandTheObjectivist

I have a theory about that. If you actually read what all the genders mean, it's quite the eye opener.

For instance, one, quite prevalent, gender means something like I don't have sex with someone with whom I don't have an emotional connection.

Which we would have called not putting out on the first date, or second, or fifth.

It seems to me that young women these days have to invent an actual identity for what is a quite normal human reaction. And I wonder if it is because of our current Internet based porn soaked society.

Like non binary. It's absolutely no surprise to me that there are plenty of youngsters who do not want to be confined by society's expectations of what men and women are supposed to do (i.e. gender).

We call it personality, but I understand that you might have to have a 'gender identity', in order to legitimise it. So you don't have to make excuses for it.

The Economist are hosting a series of essays from different viewpoints.

Videos of speakers at A Woman's Place meetings can be found here.

Like you, Datun, I suspect a lot of instance of "non-binary" are something else entirely.

I'm not quite sure what being genuinely non-binary means (I have more of an idea of what it is to be a transsexual I think, having talked at length to friends who are - I personally do not doubt the reality of being transsexual, it's just that I can't conceptualize it as being literally in the wrong body or literally being a woman/man despite having a biologically male/female body as some transactivists insist.)

What I do see among people declaring themselves non-binary are a range of behaviours which fit a range of possible underlying motivations.

For some (especially biologically female individuals) it is a retreat from a pornified culture surrounding them. The only way to "opt out" of the Kardashian-esque "woman as silicon-inflated barbie doll with trout pout and 7" heels" stereotype is to declare oneself "non-binary" or "agender". It's a kind of half way house between being in the "totally pink 'n' plastic" box and the "transman" box (since, despite all protestations about how liberating trans ideology is - "breaking the gender binary" and all that crap - the whole thing seems to be about putting people into incredibly tightly defined and restrictive boxes).

There may even be some biologically male individuals for whom declaring oneself to be nonbinary or agender is a route out of toxic masculinity and a route towards being able to express oneself emotionally.

Then there are some individuals (I suspect a fair few of this category, if not most, are biologically male) for whom being non-binary or gender fluid is a useful means of getting a bit of a frisson from wearing a skirt occasionally, while maintaining one's male privilege.

FermatsTheorem

I agree with all that!

I really don't mind seeing a strange mans ears. His penis, very much less so.
As a child I too was flashed at, weirded out and made to feel uncomfortable by men. As a grown woman I have been assaulted, leched at and groped in public places. It makes me furious that I had to put up with that because I could not avoid it.

Done. Im angry now

I've seen thousands of penises because I was a nurse. They are just 'body parts' in that context. They aren't in daily life though, if they were there would be no need to cover them. Hence the term 'private parts'.
Women have the right to set personal boundaries (as do men) and mine is that I will not get undressed to underwear level or less in front of any male who is not an HCP or sexual partner. The fact that they may identify as a woman or believe they are one doesn't change that. And neither will my daughter while she is in my care.
It's blatantly obvious whats going on here - to get to the point where girls and women can no longer say no to men, where we basically have no right to bodily autonomy.

Are people really this bad? Really?!

I doubt there are very many women, in the country, who haven't been flashed at, at some point or another.

Shit, I'd forgotten. I have seen an adult penis once, when the wanker who owned it flashed at me on holiday.

But once is more than enough thanks.

I've been flashed so many times I've lost count. If anyone thinks blokes won't use self-id as a reason to sit spread legged in the women's changing room with their cocks artfully arranged looking women straight in the eye and getting off on how upset and uncomfortable they are - and then explaining to the management that it was a misunderstanding caused by rampant transphobia - then those people are stupid and naive and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near safeguarding.

As a child I too was flashed at, weirded out and made to feel uncomfortable by men. As a grown woman I have been assaulted, leched at and groped in public places.

Yep - same here.

I have two DDs I want better for them not worse.

It's deeply worrying concerns about my children’s safety are just brushed aside as nothing or labelled transphobic.

spread legged in the women's changing room with their cocks artfully arranged looking women straight in the eye and getting off on how upset and uncomfortable they are - and then explaining to the management that it was a misunderstanding caused by rampant transphobia

It wouldn't even be a misunderstanding. A woman (ie transwoman) making eye contact with another woman whilst being naked in a communal changing room is par for the course.

What recourse would women have? What could they say? That woman is staring at me?

Like the person on the other thread who said stop being so bigoted just because some women do not meet your ideal standard of what women should look like (i.e. they have a penis).

It's gaslighting on an industrial scale.

Gaslighting on an industrial scale is exactly right.

It sounds cliched, and god knows I Know how nasty women can sometimes be to each other, but there is a real relaxed, easy going camaraderie in my gym changing room. I'm there every day and it's a chilled-out, comfortable space. One of the PTs who works there came in a few days ago and had a huge rant/vent about the fact that she was having appalling cramps and had to keep a smile on her face all day but she was just in agony and needed a few minutes 'off'.

I am hesitant to post this because I know that in some ways this plays into the trans woman fantasy (that I've encountered in real life a few times) of the intimate, giggly, way that women supposedly relate to each other - but there is something about being able to just relax a bit around each other.

A male there would change the entire atmosphere, take away the sense of it being a safe place for a bit of respite.

And this is a GYM. A place that people choose to visit, a place of recreation. It doesn't bear thinking about what it feels like to have your refuge, hospital room, survivors' group, or prison cell suddenly having men in it.

It's gaslighting on an industrial scale.

It so is.

NanaNoodleman

Preach.

I’m pretty fucking tired of all the men who think they can get off on making women feel uncomfortable. All those men in management who think they can perveon you the without consequences.

I’ve lost count of the number of times i’ve been on a situation with a man who has made me feel uncomfortable and i’ve just had to laugh it off because he could ruin my career, dreams, embarrass me.

"While you're down there" har har har.

What recourse would women have? What could they say? That woman is staring at me?

It's hard enough to put into words when men give off bad vibes or behave badly now.

I always think that's why the book The gift of fear is so often quoted. It gives permission to listen to your inner warning system where as so often your told you’re being unkind or imagine it.

The swim England guidelines, before they went under review, were saying anyone complaining needed re-educating – you have to wonder how bad behaviour would have to get before it was stop being brushed off.

Laws are put in place to protect the vulnerable from dangours members of society. Unfortunately the laws are usually not put into place until people have been hurt and the need for the law is realised.

This is why you need a CAB check to work with children. Why guns are now banned. Why under 18s cant buy fireworks. Why intermate exams being performed by the opposite sex are done with a chaperone present. And why in certain circumstances men and women are separated by sex.

It's not about getting over seeing a penis. There are lots of country's where public nudity and nudity in the family is normal. They still segregate based on sex in certain circumstances.

If we take away the segregation, we may quickly see why the sexs were split up in the first place.

No one is saying all trans are a danger to women. What they are saying is some may present a danger and some oppertunistic men may take advantage of the change in law to gain access to female only spaces.

Just popped back to post this

www.gires.org.uk/the-gender-recognition-act-discussion-november-2017/

It explains how lots of countries have had self-determined gender for a while now and the sky didn't fall in. Changing rooms did not suddenly become more dangerous. Yes it's GIRES which many will say is biased, so Google the details and fact check. I did. Unlike Transgender Trend's stuff, it does stand up to scrutiny.

I have been trying to understand where people are coming from. And I think some people here may have been traumatised by horrible childhood experiences perpetrated by men and it's understandably prompting a panicky response. I myself am a survivor of this and have had PTSD symptoms. Two years of therapy later and I can now see outside myself again. So I do get how the prospect of self ID can be triggering and result in lashing out.

Lashing out as a big group against people like @karenna isn't ok though.

I've been reading widely this afternoon about what's happened in other countries and I am convinced that the proposed changes to the GRA won't lead to more dangerous circumstances than already exist. Some on this thread have described sexual impropriety by possibly trans people (eg the hospital story; some discussions on online crossdresser forums)- of course this happened in the context of current arrangements so isn't an argument for or against proposed changes to the law. If ypu look at tge govt proposals and GRA consultation you'll see that safeguards will still be in place to protect women (yes, perhaps all women) in places like DV refuges.

Trans and non trans women both experience sexual violence and we can work together to support each other. At the moment trans women don't have many places to go if they've suffered sexual violence and that does need to change. You can't just leave a victim out on the pavement.

In terms of the general confusion and derision about anything beyond the heteronormative and homonormative binary- most philosophers, sociologists, gender theorists, neurologists and biologists are now quite convinced that the evidence all points to a more diverse reality. As women we've been conditioned to believe we exist as a binary counterpoint to men. But many people's experience falls outside this paradigm and you can't just wish it away because it's a minority experience.

Nobody would deliberately try and throw women and children under a bus. Almost everyone (except sociopaths) on this thread feels passionately about equality, safe spaces and freedom. More constructive discussion is needed, and not just in an echo chamber. We should be engaging each other in yes, passionate, and yes, perhaps heated debate- this is important! But we still need to adhere to basic principles of respect. Just as we teach our kids, let's listen and be kind.

Hi spannablue.

You used the word “homonornative” in your last post.

Can you please explain what you mean by that? What is homonormativity?

Thanks.

Nobody would deliberately try and throw women and children under a bus.

And yet its impossible for you to hear women's voices so you are happy to do it 'by accident'.

There are several groups of women that cannot use mixed sex spaces. Trying to force them to or pretending they dont exist does not produce 'equality'