To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

Believing the consent of women and girls is unimportant is misogyny.

It is pretty misogynist to deny that there is any aggression against gender critical woman, or to say that it is unreasonable of women and girls not to want to see penises in their changing rooms/loos (adolescent or adult penises - this doesn’t apply to small children).

And as for the poster who supports their daughters right not to see a penis - words fail me!

Boundaries? Consent? Who cares about girls' boundaries, or their consent while there are the feelings of boys who identify as girls to consider? Holy shit, Karenna!

Cross posted with Ereshkigal - who has said it much more succinctly than me.

Thank you SDTG.

"And as for the poster who supports their daughters right not to see a penis - words fail me!"

karenna so let me get this straight. You're FOR indecent exposure to children?

I support the rights of all women and girls not to have to see a penis against their will

And men and boys to be fair

"And as for the poster who supports their daughters right not to see a penis - words fail me!"

People wonder why the trans ideology gets such an airing on mumsnet, particularly the feminist boards.

^^This is why.

The assertion that women have no say in their own boundaries. That consent and safeguarding can be dispensed with.

That women who object are silenced.

And this is by no means an unusual view. It is the view.

Dressed up as 'progression'.

Wait

Really sorry ive just realised ive 'what about the men' ed.

Abject apologies but i do really worry about my precious first born son nearly as much as my daughter

The second boy can mind out for himself...there is only so much concern i can take

Completely different from being forced into something. It's a body part. Get over yourself. And stop putting words into my mouth.

In which case, your child can use the gents! If body parts are immaterial, and no one cares.

It's a body part.

Do you not understand safeguarding at all?

Like many TRAs, I think you understand it only too well. You like to minimise it in the hope that people will dismiss it.

As it furthers your agenda.

Oh don't be silly. Pearl clutching - oh look a penis!
Well for one, what do you think Muslim women wouod say to that, knowing they wouldn’t even let so,done with a penis see their hair??

And what about breast then? You know the ones used for breastfeeding and the number of times women are being harassed and actresses because they dare showing a bit of flesh (not even the full breast).
Or comments about how it’s making people uncomfortable to see women with no top on at the beach?

From the latest ‘trial’ it seems that men actually don’t like a transman (who look like a woman) in their Male space (both have been tried at the swimming pool and at a lake) even though they dint have the issue of safety to content with. Said woman/transman was escorted back outside pretty quickly if I remember well.

So .... if it’s it NOT ok for someone who has self id as a man and present wry much as a woman to be in a Male space, why wouod it be ok for a transwoman (presenting as a man as they have a penis) to be in a female space?
Smacks of one rule of one and another for the other to me.
And shows the reason why we only talk about transwomen. Transmen do not have the same privilege of being listened to and ‘protected’ it seems.
Maybe because actually One is a man and the other a woman....

So the answer to the simple question "does my 8 yo daughter have the right to be naked in a changing room without seeing a penis?" is apparently no

Fuck off with that

Just as if I started claiming that my daughter was born my daughter but with the wrong parents, I would no doubt be told to fuck off with that nonsense

Goodness me. There are more than ten GC posters now bombarding karenna with posts picking apart every word, and throwing accusations.

There are real people here, living the experience and trying to do their best by their children.

I wish you could perceive how that comes across, even just for a moment.

There are real people here, living the experience and trying to do their best by their children.

Most of on here are trying to do exactly that. That's the point. That's why we are so passionate about proposals that would weaken the safeguarding structures designed to help keep our children safe

A penis IS different to an ear, or any other non-sexual body part, and it is utterly disingenuous to say it is not.

@karenna - I get that your child is you focus - but can you p,ease not throw all other women and girls u dear the bus, whilst advocating for your child?

As others have said - it is a matter of consent and boundaries - and it sounds as if you couldn’t care less about the boundaries and rights of women, as long as your child is OK. I have to say that sounds misogynistic to me.

There are real people here, living the experience and trying to do their best by their children.

People can read you know.

One by one trans advocates/TRAs disappear when their arguments crumble.

No-one is forcing karenna to say this outrageous stuff. She can disengage whenever she likes.

Although I'm not surprised that you want people to stop talking, it does not look good when people say penises don't matter!

A big sign saying, "No flashing, no gawping; manager's decision is final

That’s brilliant. Obviously it would work, because we know that we only have to put a sign up to stop perverts from flashing women and children. Why the hell didnt we think of that before? (before you jump in screaming 😴 transphobe, I’m not calling genuine trans people perverts)

If a man who identifies as a woman, still has their penis and insists that their wants outweigh my rights to a penis free changing room, women’s shelter, toilets, etc, then I’m sensing their empathy for women is non existent. I can emphasis with women who need men free spaces, but apparently that makes me the word that is banned on here. I can live with that. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I can understand why you would support your child karenna. Any parent/parent figure would, but why does your child’s right to be in a female space, outweigh my abused, autistic child’s right to a male free space. Neither child deserves to suffer, so what’s the answer? Should there be a third space, where your child won’t feel uncomfortable because they have a male body and my child can feel safe in a space where she won’t be confronted with the body of the sex which abused her?

I'm just shocked at the number of people on mumsnet who have never seen a penis

Don't be so dense @HGWXX7. I'm sure you know very well it's an issue of consent. Seeing intimate body parts as an adult in a situation where you have consented is not what is being discussed here.

I'm just shocked at the number of people on mumsnet who have never seen a penis

I'm just shocked at the number of people on mumsnet who refuse to acknowledge that many females have been abused by those of the sex, that have a penis and have no wish to share a space with a male bodied person. I'm also shocked at the number of people on mumsnet who don’t care about women’s rights.

Datun there is nothing in my post that asks anyone to stop talking.

Please don't twist my words into something they are not. It's a pretty poor use of your time, and seems rather manipulative.

The question is, why on earth are there suddenly so many people who identify as trans? I just do not believe that there were every this many people who felt they were born in the wrong body in the past. This is due either to something environmental which is messing up hormones, or it is something else altogether. What, I don't know. I do know i would not like to be in the shower with a man who identifies as a woman at the swimming pool. Or sharing a toilet with one. Etc. Shoot me down if you want.
Being a woman is a product of upbringing and experiences as much as anything else. I cannot understand how a man can suddenly'become ' a woman. They may have gender reassignment surgery, but their mindset is still male.