To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

I won't return to it unless someone raises something I hadn't already addressed.

It has been addressed repeatedly. Your intellectual dishonesty on the matter is what has made us so angry, not our secret guilt because we know you're so right really. If you really are an academic, you should be expelled for the way you have massaged and misrepresented the figures to suit your bias. What do you think would have happened in a peer review process?

It is not ok to lie about suicide statistics and then claim it's all right because we don't want anyone to be killing themselves. It wouldn't be ok with rape, murder or abuse stats either. Do you really not understand that?

And it's certainly not ok to lie about statistics and then, on being disproved, to blame everyone else and claim that they're the ones with the agenda. Do you not understand that either?

Quite apart from the issue of protecting women (since we know you don't give a fig about that), your intellectual dishonesty is harmful to trans people. They need solid, reliable figures to prove their points and their cause. You have completely trashed the integrity of those figures and given ammunition to those who would say that the trans campaign is founded on lies, bias and intellectual dishonesty.

And I bet you don't understand that either.

I think it’s the people who pretend that children with autism are primarily suffering from being trans who ought to feel guilty.
They are dragging a vulnerable population into their toxic belief system, and as the parent of a child with asd, I find them disgusting.

I ask because it matters. In the research around supportive parents of trans kids, they tend to say they have changed their fixed mindset about binary and biological gender, having lived with their child's experience.

I get the concern about predatory men abusing self ID. This isn't about genuine transwomen, but about criminal sexual predators.

However, the more frequent discussion of penises is perhaps often really just transphobia - it's barely disguised disgust at transwomen's bodies.

I ask if people know and listen to real trans people because I don't see evidence here of people finding out what some actual transpeople think about this.

In other debates on Mumsnet there is some respect for the voices of disabled people or people of colour etc but it never seems to occur to anyone that trans voices are likely to be almost completely absent here. And that is a whopping great invisible privilege right there.

Nope, really not. And disabled people get a bad deal in many discussions on MN.
I'm heterosexual, I don't have a problem with penises, and I totally get why lesbians don't want to have sex with someone who has one.
You read a lot into other peoples behaviour which is why you misunderstand and misrepresent so much of what is said.

If you actually see any transphobia or homophobia, just report it to Mumsnet and they'll delete it, instead of trying to police what you don't understand.

Quite a few of us have read autobiographries written by trans people so I don't think it's fair to say we don't listen to their position. i've always found it interesting and I have huge sympathy for them and coming from a family of psychiatrists we had good debates about the issue even back in the 1970s when I was a teenager. I also studied the then law on this topic when i was at university.

I don't think it's disgusting at all that a man with a penis or a transwoman with a penis might put on a dress. I think that's just projecting on to many of us what is not there. i am a woman. I tend to wear the same clothes every day as like a lot of women and men I don't have much interest in clothes - there will always be women and men like I am and plenty of others who are really interested in clothes and it is a big part of who they are.

All those stats I referenced have been peer reviewed.

All stats are open to interpretation amd bias.

Reading books isn't the same as knowing someone.

I'm here to learn. Does anyone have and good references on changes in crime rate and type in Denmark following self ID?

Have any of you actually met and listened with an open mind to an actual trans person? Breathtaking!

Yes, many poster either ARE trans or have trans friends and family members, They just don't happen to be Activists determined to undermine the rights of women, girls and now, it seems, disabled people, to get what they want.

the more frequent discussion of penises is perhaps often really just transphobia No... it is women protesting against men and their rape kit being given free access to women's spaces. It is about the silencing of women, the disregard of their safety, their feelings in order to placate a loud and aggressive , small cohort of men.

Those men are systematically dismantling any and every aspect of female rights at the expense of everyone who is not One of Them - that is every woman, girl, boy and all trans men and women who disagree with them.

Understand that almost all of the posters here are not transphobic, they fear the violence and aggression of men, mainly because they have experienced it. That is all of the women and all of the transwomen who regularly post here.

I won't say there aren't any transphobic poster as I, along with others, have reported transphobic posts and seen them deleted! I am not blinkered, nor am I transphobic.

but it never seems to occur to anyone that trans voices are likely to be almost completely absent here Which just shows how little you have read... or you would be able to name at least 3 transwomen posters, without any hesitation whatsoever!

spannablue
when a kid presents with autism and gender variance it takes a lot longer for professionals (with the family) to decide what to do in terms of a treatment plan

Could you tell me who these professionals are?
What is their professional degree in?
What help they give do they give to these teenagers?

If your answer is stonewall or mermaids they are already known to have a proven bias towards non counselling medical transition.

All those stats I referenced have been peer reviewed. MM! OK, and many carry their own warning against using them without due care and attention - they acknowledge their limitations

All stats are open to interpretation amd bias. Yes, which the original studies openly declare - unlike Stonewall who publish the 'headlines' without comment

Reading books isn't the same as knowing someone. But you are still working on the incorrect premise that all of us GC poster have no trans friends or family - let alone those who are themselves transwome!

I'm here to learn. Then stop making uninformed statement of 'fact'

Does anyone have and good references on changes in crime rate and type in Denmark following self ID? Doesn't google carry them?

Have any of you actually met and listened with an open mind to an actual trans person?

One of my best friends is trans and although she prefers female pronouns has stated that she will never be a woman, she will only be able to present as one. (but of course that is anecdotal and of little worth)

It's notable how many people are trying to invalidate my argument by trying to query my academic credentials.

Firstly, this ain't the place. I already have to go through an exhaustive institution and discipline wide process. It takes months and draws on resources not available on thus message board. As far as that goes I'm about average for an early to mid career academic. So I'm ok with that.

Secondly, in academia as many of you will know we don't deal with absolutes. We deal with nuance, evidence, hypothesis, discussion. We try out ideas and challenge them, using a particular structure. As Foucault says, 'all discourses are a construct, including mine'. This thread is a challenge for me as most here play by different rules. It's good though- I'm really refining my thoughts in the process.

Thirdly, don't worry about my students. They're doing ok.

@spannablue yes I have spoken, communicated, talked with a trans woman as I would any other member of the community.

Was served by a trans woman yesterday in m&s didn't treat her any differently to other members of staff, I was courteous and respectful. In my local a CEX Store, i needed advice about my MacBook, I waited to be served by her. She just happened to be trans, didn't treat her any differently. Is that what you mean op??

@BoneyBackJefferson tead the references posted earlier.

So for anyone who's posted to say they have trans friends and family: what do they say about all this? Have you asked them?

Re anecdotes:

We have to look at stats and qualitative data together.

Why should convicted sex offenders such as William Jaggs get the legal right to access women only spaces and services?

spannablue

Your links all see to be about the suicide stats.

I would like to know about the counseling and safeguarding around the encouragement of puberty blockers in teenagers.

its also amusing that you post for me to read when you haven't read what my trans (its what she calls herself) friend has said.

spannablue

X post, but no real comment.

Being honest, research and stats are all fine. Anyone can find research and stats to support any argument they wish to make on any subject matter.

However, the general public don't tend to care about stats and research. I note the 18% in the pink news. That means a whopping 80% don't support trans issues. Throwing around suicide and guilt isn't the way to go to get them to see your views. There are similar if not worse stats around ESA disabled benefit claimants suicides. Nothing much has changed for them and they equally remain an invisible voice. You could repeat that for all sorts of minority groups.

With respect you're going about this the wrong way.

Eventually the theory and research will collide with the views of the 80% outside the LGBT bubble.

The unwashed majority aren't overly interested in minority causes whether that be disability, BME, or indeed trans. They aren't interested in definitions or your world view. They care about how much tax they pay and whether their kids can go to a good school.

Understand there are some genuine concerns. The man on the Clapham omnibus isn't going to want the Mrs confronted with a dick in a changing room. These are the concerns of the ordinary person. Not nuanced arguments about definitions or suicide rates. How does this affect me? Is always the question asked and the one you should be trying to answer.

I'm not dismissing what you say but all too often academics tend to get het up in samples and researched opinions. The world doesn't always fit a sample or researched opinions. Which is what you are finding on here. The outside world operates similarly. This is a taster of the challenge faced later on. It's good you've seen it.

Using the the argument of children will die! Is next to useless. Parallels need to be drawn between the issues faced by trans people and the majority to make headway.

It's notable how many people are trying to invalidate my argument by trying to query my academic credentials. I'm just trying to make some common ground on those stats! You know they are unreliable and you seem to be quoting their use from some very biased organisations, not the initial studies themselves - which all, well, the ones I have read, carry significant notes of caution. They certainly don't say that nearly a quarter of all trans kids kill themselves - which is the assertion you are being challenged on!

So for anyone who's posted to say they have trans friends and family: what do they say about all this? Have you asked them? Why not ask the trans posters here? Get that information without any filter?

But to answer your question yes:
Transman has absolutely no intention of getting involved in any of the political maneoverings. He is, at long last, happy in his body and personal relationships.

Transwoman is scared by all of the TRA shouting. She has lost a lot of confidence in her ability to 'pass' and live a safe and normal life. She is no longer seen much at the running club, which is sad as nobody has said anything and many have tried to coax her out on runs, but she is scared of passers by, she never used to be.

Cross dresser thinks it is a bit of a laugh, but fully understands that his personal fetish does not mean he is trans. And it didn't stop him watching the football in the pub in a fetching full length smocked summer dress - and Birkenstocks.

Gay SIL is tired of being harrassed in pubs by transwomen who persist in propositioning her.

Gay uncle is in Spain, does't give a shit, his days of activism are over.

Gender fluid cousin is now more confused than ever. She was happily living a masculine lifestyle, bouncing between being straight and gay, not being bi-sexual at any given time. She used to be just a 'gender bender' now she feels she has to make a choice, pick a label. She is more unhappy than she has been in over 40 years.

Now, tell me again how I don't understand and am transphobic!

Mumsnet is an echo chamber. Not the outside world.

I know someone non-binary and have great sympathy for what they have suffered throughout their life. I heard the news of their surgery plans and I felt sad that their healthy body was to be mutilated as te only way to make them feel happy and comfortable. I would wish they could find another route to peace. I absolutely disagree with their assertions about transwomen being women and their dismissal of people like Hadley Freeman as ‘massively transphobic’.

There are also several trans posters on here who hold a gender critical position. Trans voices are listened to on here. Hilariously, the posters who are so keen to identify and condemn ‘transphobia’ absolutely ignore and refuse to engage with the trans posters who express gender critical views.

Your fudging around the suocode stats and breathtaking irresponsibility in discussing suicide in the manner you have done is absolutely abhorrent, OP, and you should truly be ashamed of this. This is not me being hostile because you are making me uncomfortable about being such a nasty bigot, this is me being horrified that you would risk vulnerable people being influenced towards suicide ideation by your sweeping generalisations regarding suicide amongst trans people. You most certainly have not addressed that.

Some people being trans does not mean that biological sex no longer exists.
It would be perfectly possible to accommodate trans people with the third space option, instead of erasing women's rights to single sex spaces.

@spannablue Why don't you support the third space otion?

Mumsnet is an echo chamber. Not the outside world. Who was that to? How very dismissive of you and untrue... look at this and many other threads and you will see a lot of disagreement, that's why this one is almost full with 972 posts and still lost of argument.

It may well be at times. Very many fora are, given that each place attracts like minded individuals!

But it is also the only place that many women and transwomen can talk about this particular topic. We can debate, spar, share information, gain information and confidence in our own viewpoints. Why is that a bad thing?

spannablue
Mumsnet is an echo chamber. Not the outside world.

And yet it is more real than many academic papers that have been fabricated to prove a point.