To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

Mumsnet is an echo chamber. Not the outside world.

In the outside world the idea that someone with a penis could be a 'lesbian' would be laughed right outta town.

Surely if it was an echo chamber we'd all be in agreement?
What you see a lot of on MN is real people, not academics, or media people, but a breadth of opinion.
Plus most of us ordinary people do actually know other ordinary people (who might also happen to be gay, or black, or trans) and have an opinion (based on personal and lived experience) on these matters.

Plus most of us ordinary people do actually know other ordinary people (who might also happen to be gay, or black, or trans) and have an opinion (based on personal and lived experience) on these matters.

Get thee to Fuck Beamur all that being reasonable and normal and even diverse - sickening

And all in one post curious

All those boxes ticked

For an academic the OP isn't very honest intellectually pushing falsified research on us.

I'm going to summarise my position, lest the OP or anyone else persist in the 'if you express any concerns at all with self-id, etc, you're transphobic':

1. I want to support anyone suffering any kind of dysphoria, unhappiness with their body, sense of self, etc. in the best ways possible. I think it's incumbent on any member of society to do so and on a civilised society as a whole.

1. I'm very concerned about the number of young people presenting with sudden onset dysphoria. I'm also concerned that we get the balance right in supporting them - I fear we're pushing some of them into something they might well regret later (I'm thinking particularly of medical interventions with permanent results).

1. I'm very concerned about self-id and its potential to allow predatory men and sex offenders into women's safe spaces in ways which could be catastrophic for women and girls (including within schools).

1. I'm very concerned about what's happening within the LGBT+ community, wherein it seems to me that TRAs are throwing lesbians (and all women) under the bus and out of the equation.

binary and biological gender

Biological gender isn't a thing. You mean BIOLOGICAL SEX, which is very definitely and immutably binary.

OP hasn't addressed how these stats break guidelines from mental health charities, or acknowledged that there are also stats suggesting that suicidal ideation actually peaks AFTER transition. Screw those people though, eh?

Mumsnet is an echo chamber. Not the outside world.

It's far more reflective of the outside world than your own echo chamber.

Perhaps you shouldn't start threads when you haven't time to lay out your arguments OP?

The “outside world” is far more hostile to spannablues philosophy, if that is not too elevated a term, than MN is.
Here you get invited to explain yourself sensibly. I’m afraid in many other places you’d just be laughed at. I personally am unsure if the good natured efforts of many here to engage with you are not counter productive. Treating seriously that which is not serious gives it a level of credibility it should not have.

”Working to save the elephant doesn't mean not working to save the tiger.

Working to build a new LGBT centre doesn't mean not working to build shelters for homeless people.”

I haven’t seen any LGBT people wanting homeless people to ‘enjoy their erasure’, nor have I seen any elephant conservationists insisting that elephants are actually tigers, and the natal tigers must henceforth be known as cistigers, though, @spannablue.

The extreme trans activists don’t seem to care about women’s rights at all - they do not want Tom find way s to advance the right side of trans people, and meet their needs without damaging the rights of girls and women - I honestly believe they do not give a single damn about us - they want us to shut up and enjoy our erasure, and I am not willing to do this.

Damn you autocorrect - that should be ‘...they do not want to find ways...’ - I have no idea who Tom is, or what he is doing in my post.

They get everywhere, pesky men

spannablue

Mumsnet is an echo chamber. Not the outside world.

Mumsnet has 12 million unique users per month.

I suggest it is very representative.

Specifically, the feminist board is populated, even over represented, by LGBT.

There are loads of transwomen who post.

There are two entire threads, on going threads devoted to women who are married to transwomen.

I'm wondering if you did not expect women here to be so well-informed. A demographic of 12 million will give you physicists, scientists, transwomen, MPs, journalists and endocrinologists. As well as people who push prams.

Your suicide statistic showed you up. No matter which way you cut it up, there are not 200 dead children.

But what it did is showed up your agenda.

spannablue
Mumsnet is an echo chamber. Not the outside world.

Oh my god. Did an academic working in academia just call an open, free, public discussion forum on the internet 'an echo chamber'??!

That is fucking hilarious.

I mean, possibly one of the stupidest, funniest and most blinkered comments I've ever read.

Thank you OP for giving me a proper laugh while I plough on with my work on a sunny day.

Theory is all very well but it has to stand up to real life testing.

Women's lives are the real life testing. So your theories have to be sound before you go taking chances with us.

Your theories don't stand up to scrutiny.

In fact (I can't be bothered to re-read the analysis of the Stonewall report), didn't that survey show that half the suicidal cohort were disabled?

It's the disabled are at the most risk of suicide. Something that seems to be ignored.

A woman on another thread as designated one of the disabled toilets, in her school, to trans children.

The elevation of one protected characteristic above all others is very concerning.

If you really are here to learn, OP read some of the threads. Stop listening to homophobic, misogynistic organisations like Stonewall.

If you don't believe me, ask them for their definition of homosexual. You'd be surprised at the answer.

Ask them for their definition of lesbian.

Treating seriously that which is not serious gives it a level of credibility it should not have.

I agree with you.

I'm wondering if you did not expect women here to be so well-informed. A demographic of 12 million will give you physicists, scientists, transwomen, MPs, journalists and endocrinologists. As well as people who push prams.

These people often show their internalised or overt misogyny when they sneer at a forum predominantly used by women like MN.

@spannablue YA absolutely, utterly NBU! And I applaud you & admire you for standing up to say this.

I’m not even going to read the responses here because I know how awful some will be - justifying their bigotry in the name of feminism - but I hope you don’t get hurt by any of them. There are many of us women (gay, straight, cisgender) who abhorr transphobia, and we must speak out so that others know feminism is not full of such prejudice & hatred 👍

I’m not even going to read the responses here because I know how awful some will be - justifying their bigotry in the name of feminism - but I hope you don’t get hurt by any of them. There are many of us women (gay, straight, cisgender) who abhorr transphobia, and we must speak out so that others know feminism is not full of such prejudice & hatred

So - you haven't read the responses but you "know" how "awful" some will be.

THAT is the definition of an "echo chamber", right there.

I don't see any "prejudice" or "hatred" in the responses, though I've seen some prejudice in the OP's position.

I’m not even going to read the responses here because I know how awful some will be - justifying their bigotry in the name of feminism Wait! You will NOT read the responses but WILL know some will be awful!

OK!

You are a fizzy blue banana and nobody wants to eat you! Na na woooooo!

I don't have any prejudice against trans people. I also don't think it's entirely fair to say it's an echo chamber.

I like to try and be realistic rather than idealistic.

The danger of over promoting the voices of the people asking for change is that those who don't and who are happy with the status quo, who usually tend to be the majority, won't listen as they don't feel their concerns are being listened to and they are being expected to give all the ground.

My main point was that if 80% of people are not supportive of your cause, listening to why that is and accepting, that from their view, that their views are valid, is a good start.

My secondary point is that mainstream views won't be around the definition of words or whether a research paper says something or doesn't. It won't be a nuanced view. It will be that who they perceive as male shouldn't be using a female facility. Whether you think that's right or wrong or the perception is wrong is irrelevant. It's the likely view of the majority. So that has to be worked with, and understood, rather than dismissing it as phobic or bigoted.

That's hard if you are trans not to have the majority support you. I see that. But you can't just dismiss and ignore the concern and bandy about the accusations of bigot and contempt for bodies. That's unfair.

What also has to be borne in mind and that hasn't been mentioned much on here is the reaction of men to these changes. Heterosexual men. They will not want who they perceive to be other males having access to their wives and girlfriends and daughters in changing rooms. They aren't going to be interested in whether someone has a piece of paper or what they identify as, that wont be their concern. Whether that's right or wrong is not overly relevant. It's about being realistic about human behaviour. I find some of the points made to be naive in the extreme.

It's about dealing with the world as it is and not as one may wish it to be.