To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

No. Sorry. Because it's wrong. Please don't tell me to "get used to it" playground StyleWriter - because you don't have the right.

They are an example of how many people feel

And other people feel differently. And their feelings are important too. You read the thread.

because you don't have the right.

You don't have the right to tell women what they can and can't be concerned about and organise to challenge. Sorry you can't control what other people do.

I did.

I think you are entitled to your opinion. You however, clearly don't think I am.

You're entitled to your opinion. Anyone is.

karenna

You're deliberately swerving the issue. Because you can see, if it's in black-and-white, how bad it looks.

As Stonewall have decided that men who fetishise women are women, do you not think that women have every right to maintain a boundary that keeps them away while women are in a state of vulnerability?

He definitely did not identify as a woman. The fact that he was so secure in his masculinity was the root of his fetish. The contrast and deviance. If he'd been a trans woman, he'd have felt he was aligning himself with who he really was, but what he got off on was knowing that he was dressing as a sexy woman while being very much a man.

Plus he liked the feel of silk.

He wasn't a woman in any sense. He'd have rejected that idea passionately.

Fortunately the law disagrees with you. And about time.

The law can disagree as much as it likes. It won’t be changing my opinion. And that’s exactly the point. The law cannot control what people think. Yes it can protect people from hate crimes but as im never likely to commit one because I’d never be hateful to a person I can continue to have my personal beliefs.

My daughter has the right to get changed without seeing a penis, regardless of whether the penis owner believes that they are female or male. I will fight for that right for her, because what kind of mother would I be if I turned a blind eye to the decades of safeguarding practice that we have built up (that still is insufficient in too many instances, particularly regarding especially vulnerable children)?

My daughter is also adopted but desperately wishes that she wasn't. I could tell her that she wasn't adopted, that the pieces of paper mean that she is my daughter and has always been my daughter, but I would be lying to her. And although it'd certainly be easier in the short term to go down that route, it certainly wouldn't help her in the long term. Very few lies are genuinely helpful TBH.

AynRandTheObjectivist

It's quite an interesting phenomenon.

If you look at the pattern. Many cross dressers are extra macho. Either in the military, or often in male dominated areas like IT.

Frequently married with children (or divorced).

And it is a spectrum. It starts with secret cross dressing. And can sometimes remain there, but other times it develops into full blown autogynephilia.

I don't know if there is a point on the spectrum where denying they are women is part of it, or whether or not your friend was unusual.

Googling transwidows is informative, if ever you feel the need to know more! Women who have been married to men with AGP/cross dressers.

He'd have rejected that idea passionately.

Except, perhaps, when he realises that by saying "I am a woman", lots of doors are opened to him that are currently closed. Someone who is at the moment held back by societal norms would no longer have a boundary to cross if he wants to try on underwear in the M&S women's changing room

As I understand it, outlying issues can occur at any of these points. The result can be intersex people, nonbinary people, or people who look one way on the outside and feel differently inside. This may or may not have a neurological component.

You understand wrong.
Intersex, Female and male.

Lets not confused biology with bullshit the feelz

Misogynist - for what? Allowing my female child to be female and not being bullied into telling her she can't be?

Yes, Karenna. It's misogynist to see woman as an identity that males can adopt. Because your child is feminine but will never be female. Words have meanings and biology is not bigotry.

Telling anyone they can change sex and that the world will perceive them as that sex does them no service

Datun
I found it very strange when someone told me that the Royal Marines have a very specific tradition of dressing in women's rig.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude

Having been reading about this for best part of two years, that comes absolutely no surprise to me whatsoever!

What does come as a massive surprise is how people manage to plan their lives out in such a definite way.

Like, what comes first, being in the military and liking to wear women's knickers, or the other way round?

How and why do they go together?

I know that the fetish itself involves seeing women as humiliated and victims. So maybe the whole macho thing makes sense if that's your attitude to women?

Who knows.

Misogynist is a person (usually but not always male) who hates women.

I'm neither. I'm a feminist who supports my daughter to be female. She has never been a man.

She hasn't decided to be a man either.

It's a transphobic viewpoint.

Sorry. Meant she hasn't decided to be a woman. As in it's not a choice.

Datun

It would be interesting to know if Phillip (Pip) Bunce ever wears a dress in the board room.

And as for the poster who supports their daughters right not to see a penis - words fail me!

And being adopted but not wanting to be is not the same.

She was born female with the wrong physical parts.

And as for the poster who supports their daughters right not to see a penis - words fail me!

Why?

It's your beliefs which are out of kilter with everyone else's, karenna.

What does "female" mean to you, karenna? I'm guessing something different to what it means to me and a lot of other people given what you say about your child.

And as for the poster who supports their daughters right not to see a penis - words fail me!

I honestly don't understand you. Women spend a great deal of time giving their daughters self-esteem, telling them that their boundaries are their own, that they can maintain them, that no means no, and do not feel pressurised to say otherwise.

And in the very next breath you say unless a man says differently, of course.

I support the rights of all women and girls not to have to see a penis against their will. It's a sex crime under any other circumstances.

MN does seem to have a bit of an obsession with the issue. But it seems as if it's here to stay and in the end won't we all just have to accept that.