To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

Many people have helped me. What doesn't help is people telling trans people that their child isn't what they in fact are.

You're kind of proving my point, here. If you're going to maintain your child is trans, you are telling everyone exactly what sex your child is.

Some people will only be polite for so long. And you know what, not everyone will be polite.

Far kinder to say they are trans, without then maintaining they are the opposite sex.

But that would be wrong.

”You are definitely NBU, OP. But they won't listen, so there's no point telling them.”

Ohhh the fucking IRONY!!

Are you going to read any of the posts on this thread that disagree with you, @itsallgoneshitflavoured - maybe even consider and engage with some of the concerns that I and other posters have expressed?

Or are you the one who can’t/won’t listen.

There are trans people who say they are male one day and female the next. Who is the (quite famous) businessman who does this?
As ever these debates stall over terminology, the inability to agree a definition of “woman” and the tendency to use gender and sex to mean whatever the speaker wants them to mean.

Nutcase" and "lol". Genius.

You're coming across with very mixed messages, here.

You yourself said that being a woman one day and a man the next is not transgenderism. That it 'takes years'.

Frankly it's you who is being ignorant, because yes it is considered transgenderism. Cross dressers, transvestites and AGP individuals are all considered transwomen.

And, according to you, that makes them actual women.

I agree with you that that makes no sense, hence 'nutcase ideology'.

'I DO question people who are a man in one day and a woman the next.'

It's not ignorant Karenna. I know someone who actually does this. Presents as a woman at weekends and as a man (which is what he is) Monday - Friday.

Datun

Was it you who came up with the straw man comment? Apologies if not.

There are trans men and women. And there are men and women.

I don't feel you have the right to dictate to people who they should be - sorry.

Phillip (Pip) Bunce. Who is a high ranking Credit Suisse executive.

On the days she feels like a woman she wears a dress and uses the female facilities on the days he feels like a man he wears a suit and uses the gents.

He was awarded a tribute for being one of the top 50 women in business.

Callum/Abi is the genderfluid policeman/woman with 2 warrant cards. Abi can strip search women on days when she identifies as a woman; because trans women are women.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/23/fluid-gender-policeman/

I don't feel you have the right to dictate to people who they should be - sorry.

Eh? Of course I do if it means they're standing next to me in the showers.

Are you really saying that as a parent of a tran child, who has had a lot of troubles, you also agree that cross dressing fetishists are every bit as much a woman as I am?

”I get that. But from my angle, the aggression is all towards the trans community.”

Gender critical women have been assaulted, threatened with rape, doxxed, physically prevented from attending meetings to discuss this issue - so I am sorry, @karenna, but the aggression is simply not ‘all towards the trans community’. Please do not deny that it IS happening.

Nothing excuses aggression towards your child or any trans person. But equally nothing excuses aggression towards gender critical people either.

Hmm. I know this is AIBU - but no you don't. Sorry.

Hmm. I know this is AIBU - but no you don't. Sorry.

No you don't what?

Eh? Of course I do if it means they're standing next to me in the showers.

This? Yes of course people are allowed to recognise that a male body is a male body. Christ.

I was responding to Karenna not you Datun if that wasn't clear!

karenna

I don't know what AIBU has to do with it. I don't change my stance, depending on who I'm talking to.

Are you saying that a cross dressing fetishist, say, has every right to shower next to me, and I don't have the right to say they are not a woman, and therefore should not be showering next to me? Or give me a smear test? Or giving me a security search?

Because if you are, then you are misogynist and there is little point in us engaging further.

^”There are trans men and women. And there are men and women”

But there are transactivists who would call this statement literal violence, @karenna - because they say trans women are women, and trans men are men - so any statement that implies or states that there is a distinction between trans women and women is transphobic.

Transactivists do not want trans women to be a subset of women - they want to state that trans women ARE women - that there is no need for a separate term.

Cross dressers, transvestites and AGP individuals are all considered transwomen.

Oh my God, really?

I knew a guy years ago who loved wearing women's underwear. He was a man in every sense, male bodied, very much considered himself a man, even straight if that's of any relevance. But he just really liked the feel of the fabrics, and the thrill of doing something deviant, wearing lingerie on his clearly male (and quite buff) body. He thought it looked very interesting hanging off his male frame, he liked the feeling, he liked the idea that he was participating in something typically feminine and shaking things up a bit.

He absolutely was NOT a trans woman and was pretty 'masculine' in everything else - this was his secret thing.

Seriously, just cross dressing makes you a woman now?

Misogynist - for what? Allowing my female child to be female and not being bullied into telling her she can't be?

Feel free not to engage. We don't agree and I find your attitude outdated. Sorry.

Newsflash. It's not all about your child. Other people have rights and feelings and needs too.

Which is exactly what I said severs tines. It's not about my child at all. They are an example of how many people feel. Please read the thread properly.

*several times

So yes, I agree with Datun that while we may be "outdated" according to your LGBT courses, your views are misogynistic. And we are not shutting up about women's and girls' rights, so get used to it.

AynRandTheObjectivist

Well yes, this is part of the problem now.

Old-fashioned transsexuals, who would mostly be gay men, and have surgery, used to share women's spaces on a courtesy system. No one really cared. They were few and far between and just wanted to get on with it under the radar.

But now, according to Stonewall, cross dressers, transvestites, and men who fetishise women and their biology (AGP), are all transwomen.

85% of transwomen don't have genital surgery and many remain attracted to women. Your friend, sounds like a typical fetishist cross dresser. He would now be considered just as much a woman as you. With all the access to womens spaces.

this is why it's become so militant.

The ideology has become a magnet for people like this, who really have zero affinity with women, and get off on all the boundary violation.

Karenna your child can and should be whoever they want to be. That is their right. But they shouldn't be expressing their rights in a way that makes women seriously uncomfortable.

Unfortunately for your child the TRAs have lumped them and their genuine gender dysphoria and asked for them to be considered the same as Barry who is Sheila on the weekends, and Pete who's a perve getting his rocks off on dressing like Emily inLittle Britain.