To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

karenna

But we don't need to recognise if someone is gay or not, to know that they have reproductive potential.

We do need to know if they are male or female.

It's not really worrying. And I didn't - but many others did. Grandparents, school, friends parents. Yes it's bad - but it would be crazy to pretend that people gender stereotype. They do. I agree it shouldn't happen, but it does.

And she's female. Biologically born male. But as we know, or should know now - gender isn't just about biology.

karenna

What I'm saying is, you can talk to the women on here. You can talk to your school. Your friends and your child's peers.

But you can't make people believe something that's not actually true. That they know can't be true. That their lifetime of experience tells them can't be true.

You can absolutely get people to accept that your child is trans. But what you can't get them to do is to accept that they are the opposite sex.

So what do you suggest? I force her back to being male? With all that entails? Or tell her that she can't be really a female because she's been born with a penis?

Not a chance of that happening. Would be beyond cruel. Fortunately a lot of people are on side and we have a lot of support through the gender clinics.

Because it is "actually true" - and the law, fortunately, is increasingly behind us.

When pushed into traditionally male acivities/scenarios just couldn't cope. Had a huge impact on her mental health as my son
Well, I think that ones quite an easy one to solve really. Don't push boys into traditionally 'male' activities/scenarios, and vice versa with girls. I think most people on mumsnet would support that.

gender isn't just about biology.

No, of course it isn't. But sex is.

It's brilliant that she has a parent who is so supportive. I'm sure it has been very difficult for both of you.

I happen to believe that the ideology is regressive and sexist.

There is no reason why your child couldn't identify as the opposite sex, whilst maintaining their natal sex. They should be able to. It is society that makes it difficult.

It's society that has made it easier for them to say they are the opposite sex. Because then their behaviour is 'allowed'.

This is why feminists were the first people to object to the ideology. They have spent decades trying to make society drop the notion of gender being so aligned to sex.

Being a woman should be a matter of biology. And that's all. Gender, i.e. femininity, should not have any bearing on it as something necessary.

My daughter is the same. Always been female. When pushed into traditionally 'male' activities / scenarios just couldn't cope.

So I am a woman who has worked in traditionally Male environments (as an engineer) and I’ve had no issue with it.
My hobbies have always been Male type of hobbies, the risky type (mountaineering, caving etc...) and I’ve always loved them.
I rarely wear a dress or skirt.
I dint wear make up.
I usually much more confortable in Male groups than female groups.

According to you, then it makes me a man then? (except that But I like baking, I like nice clothes, I’m nurturing towards my dcs and will always put them first etc etc. So I’m not where it leaves me...)

Yu can’t say that one is a woman if she isn’t a man, wo defining what being a man is.
Nor can you say ‘actually you can’t define it. It just feels like it’. (Which is also what transmen say - it’s afeelong so we still have no definition of what it is the be man or a woman gender wise)

At that game, then anyone shouod be whatever they like and we know it’s not the case because some people feel they dint belong to one group or the other.

This is a total puzzle for me and for a lot of people I think.
Sex is easy to define. It’s your chromosomes etc etc.
Gender? It’s a set of expectations that I am refusing to fit in. Like a lot of other women actually. Because those sets of expectations are so restrictive.
I can’t quite get my head around the idea someone could WANT to fit into those stereotypes. Not if you are starting from the principle that men and women are equal.

So what do you suggest? I force her back to being male? With all that entails? Or tell her that she can't be really a female because she's been born with a penis?

If it was me, and I hesitate to give you advice about anything, because I don't feel it's my place, I would read a little more about it.

I would read about what causes gender dysphoria in males. Because there are two types. And I would slowly maybe try and talk to my child about it.

Look at scientific studies, not opinion pieces or blogs.

@Datun that makes a lot of sense. I can agree with you on most of those points.

@noeffingidea

If only it were that easy! Why would I have spent years of angst! Clearly it's cut and dried for you - and liking 'men's' activities doesn't make you a man - of course or doesn't! This case is so much more complex than that!

It's nothing at all like you describe.

You appear to be happy with what you have. My daughter (and many like her - this isn't just about my child). most definitely wasn't!

karenna

Also, there is a section on here, on this site, for both parents of LGBT children, and LGBT people themselves.

What's your getting on here is more of a political viewpoint, rather than the support that I think you need.

@Datun

That is beyond patronising. I have read many studies. Spoken to people. Been on courses, and I now deliver education on lgbt awareness.

I've spent a decade studying this - so my opinion is as valid as anyone's.

I'm not after support - I have plenty - I am just offering a view. Based on reality and experience - not blogs.

Karenna I'm quoting your words. If it's not like that then why did you just say it was?

Btw karenna I wouldn’t personally suggest that your dd goes back to be your ds (unless it is right fomrthem of course).

But I’m saying that being able to DEFINE what is gender and why people could aim to be of the opposite gender wouod help separating those who really ‘don’t fit’ from those who are using the system.
Again personally, I wouldn’t have an issue with someone who is really trans and share a space with them. I actually doubt I wouod see their penis for example (for lots of reasons including the fact this wouod sign them as being different).

But I DO question transmen who want to be pregnant (a very female activity - how can you reconcile that with feeling like a man?). I question transwomen who want to use their penis for sex (first because of the hormones but also because it’s a inherently Male thing to do. Why wouod you want to have sex with a penis if you feel like a woman)
I DO question people who are a man in one day and a woman the next.

And until we have defined what gender is and what it is that makes a transwoman (or transman) feels like a woman (man), we will always have that incongruence that makes being transgender such a big issue (again because it’s open to abuse AND because it will make people feel very uncomfortable).

@Datun

That is beyond patronising. I have read many studies. Spoken to people. Been on courses, and I now deliver education on lgbt awareness.

Lol. It wasn't meant to be patronising. You asked, I answered.

You seemed unaware of the causes of gender dysphoria, as evidenced by your toys anecdote.

There are quite a few patterns to people who transition.

Stephanie Davis Arai, who gets hundreds of emails per week, has said she has yet to see a girl transition who isn't either a lesbian, autistic, or is suffering from past sexual trauma. And of course now ROGD.

Indeed autism is overwhelmingly over represented in people who transition, both male and female.

If you deliver courses regarding transgenderism, then it's a bit of a waste of my time, asking me what I would do.

I'm not after support - I have plenty - I am just offering a view. Based on reality and experience - not blogs.

Datun and others on this thread have been invaluable to me and my child. Just because you have been on courses don't assume that others can't help you if you need it. I've lived with a trans child for the best part of a decade and still had a lot to learn from them, and their support has actually been life changing for us.

@Datun

It was a rhetorical question.

@BrexitWife

I DO question people who are a man in one day and a woman the next.

This ignorance is where the problem lies. There is so much wrong with this statement I don't know where to start. One day and the next? It takes years!

@noeffingidea - my apologies. My comment was meant for Brexitwife.

Many people have helped me. What doesn't help is people telling trans people that their child isn't what they in fact are.

This ignorance is where the problem lies. There is so much wrong with this statement I don't know where to start. One day and the next? It takes years!

It's not ignorance though is it. Everyone knows this is not gender dysphoria.

Just like everyone knows that a person who is 'gender fluid', is considered just trans as your child.

Again stop blaming women for the nutcase trans ideology.

Why on earth would you think I don't need help? My god I've needed nothing but! I'm far from an expert, and doing the best I bloody can for my child - which is perhaps the most difficult experience I've ever been through. I know it's AIBU, hence the heated discussion -

However, I maintain my position. Nothing will convince me otherwise. (This isn't for support - I get that elsewhere)

Shame about the "lol" because from where I'm standing there's nothing funny.

YANU, i completely agree!

Karenna no worries.

"Nutcase" and "lol". Genius.

I'm not blaming women. I am one. I'm blaming transphobic elements of society. Some of whom are women.