To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

Blame the transactivists for that.

Well exactly. It really is a bit rich to blame women and/or feminists for this.

We were fine with it for decades. But now, transactivists have insisted that fetishists be allowed in, that anyone is trans who says they are, even if they are a child murdering rapist, and if you disagree, you are to be threatened, beaten, and possibly bombed.

I mean really?

It's not women who have fucked this up.

@Prawnofthepatriarchy

Please read my post above where I addressed exactly that option.

Exactly. Just a few years ago most of us saw no problem with welcoming a few transsexual people into our spaces, but now, well, things have changed.

We see men bullying their way into women's spaces by making a huge fuss if they don't get entry.

We see Stonewall trying to do away with the single-sex exemptions in the Equality Act.

We try to hold meetings to discuss all this and we get attacked & heckled.

And we feel under threat, and not so inclined to be openly welcoming any more, because we don't get asked. We get told, & threatened with violence if we don't comply.

I'm sorry Karenna, but this is what the anti-woman trans rights activism has led to.

I get that. But from my angle, the aggression is all towards the trans community. Also on here.

@chocolate1984 just wanting to say my comment was not referencing your (horrendous) example but rather an earlier comment saying that would be the right way to go regarding trans women in hospitals.

karenna

Objecting and saying no isn't the same aggression as bomb threats and beatings.

I think you might be surprised quite how many people here have friends who are trans - and family members.
You can, frequently divide them into those who know people with gender dysphoria and those who know people with AGP, it's true.

But they are not coming from a prejudicial position, is my point.

It's far less about one's attitude to people who are trans, and far more about one's attitude to women, often as a result of being feminist.

If it was say Librans who were doing the threatening, it would be about Librans. It's not about whether they're trans or not. It's about what they are asking women to give up.

We've got lots of trans posters, who support women. No one's got a damn thing against them.

You know, nobody goes to blatantly transphobic sites like kiwifarms or parts of reddit to criticise them about their views.

And nobody seems to think that something should be done about the male violence that makes single-sex spaces necessary in the first place. You don't see men calling each other out on that.

Everyone just puts the blame on the worried women trying to protect our spaces - whether it's through online abuse, putting pressure on websites like Mumsnet or venues that agree to host our meetings, or turning up at those meetings to protest & threaten & attack.

Why is it always women who get the flack when it's men who are the problem???? Is it because we're an easier target, & making us budge up is easier than dealing with the actual issues?

I seem to be in a minority but I think it's trans people getting the flack.

The flack from who ?

karenna

That's because your child is trans.

It's completely understandable.

But take a look at the wider picture.

Trans people are meeting, talking online, having organisations, etc.

Women aren't turning up to threaten them, or trying to stop venues holding their meetings, or doxxing them.

They just aren't. Women don't have the power.

Believe me, if we did we would be using it in feminism!

And how do you define trans people?

Given that Stonewall's official definition includes anyone who doesn't conform to gender stereotypes...

Littlbrowndog, you might want to tell Karenna what happened to the Deptford People's Project as an example of how women are affected.

The occasional aggressive poster on here (if you read upthread you'll see them) and in life. Our experience has been opposition, Denial and aggression all the way. To the point of relentless depression. Trans women are women. They've been through the system and lived the nightmare. So not to be accepted as a woman by your own gender - women themselves - is very hard. Accompanied by aggression and it's 10 times worse.

I don't think we will ever agree. It's depressing. But I'll leave the debate now - I've said what I think and will continue to think it.

Thanks for your understanding @Datun

Unfortunately our aggressive experiences have. Even from women. Some of them staff st the school I work at.

As ever a woman's place is in the wrong. Well we won't shut up about it and if that makes some people cry in corners let them cry. Women have freedom of expression.

Xenia, it's a shame you sold that island. It could have ended up as the Last Women's Space.

"Trans women are women. They've been through the system and lived the nightmare."

can you expalin what you mean by that? I am married to a women. I have a dd who is 18 now. I have two sisters. I have 3-4 very close adult female friends.

ALL of them would be really curious to hear what exactly you mean by your assertion. Like you share a history?

karenna can you please define what makes a woman to you?

Serious question because, as a ‘natal’ woman, I couldnt define what makes ME a woman wo talking about reproductive system and my experience of being brought up as a girl.

Trans women are women. They've been through the system and lived the nightmare

No they’re most certainly not a woman and never will be. They may do a relatively good job as passing themselves off as one but if they were born with penis they’ll always be a man.

karenna

It's wrong that your child is being subjected to aggression. It's not wrong that women/girls react with anger when their spaces are being threatened.

Do you see the conflict in that paragraph?

If children want to be gender nonconforming, they should do so and be accepted. And a third space quietly designated for them to make them feel comfortable, if necessary.

They should not be told they are the opposite sex. Because they're not.

And the rest of their life will be spent relentlessly fielding that very issue.

People's sex is not determined by the way they think. It never will be.

It's really not as all encompassing as people imagine. Biological sex is simply a description of reproductive function.

That's it.

Survival of the species depends upon people being able to recognise the two sexes. However much an ideology, or health condition tries to change that, it can't.

Otherwise we would all die out.

I can't help thinking you're setting someone up for a lifetime of pain if you are encouraging them to think people will not recognise sex.

Essentially that they're not a male.

I'm biologically female - I feel female - like you say it's hard to define. But I know I am one.

My daughter is the same. Always been female. When pushed into traditionally 'male' activities / scenarios just couldn't cope. Had a huge impact on her mental health as my son. Awful. Any parent would struggle to cope with that.

Now she can be what she is - female - she can get on with her life. I no longer feel scared of the limits of her depression (suicide was a real fear at one point)

So that's what I mean. I don't have the definitive guide (or right) to define what a woman is - but I am one - as is she.

There are scientific reasons - to do with hormones etc - that is a contentious issue.

But like women - trans people are afforded equal rights - as are all LGBT people. Or at least they should be. They have a right to feel safe also

As for posters saying - everyone I know is fine with trans people - that is not my experience. My experience has been one of aggression and refusal to believe or accept.

And that's from educated women as well as men.

@Floradoranora

Fortunately the law disagrees with you. And about time.

@Datun - it's not a choice ("want") - believe me, if it was, she wouldn't choose this. I haven't chosen to be a woman - I am one.

@Datun by your argument, people shouldn't be gay either - because if it really is about survival of the species, then there would be no Gay or lesbian.

We know that's not true though.

When pushed into traditionally 'male' activities / scenarios just couldn't cope. Had a huge impact on her mental health as my son. Awful. Any parent would struggle to cope with that.

I almost hesitate to say this karenna but ^^ this is such a recurring theme, it's difficult to ignore.

Why would anyone push any child towards any toy, on the basis of the fact that they are gendered by a society that does it deliberately to sell twice as many.

There is no such thing as boys' toys and girls' toys.

It amazes me that dolls are definitely designated for girls, yet boys play with action men for hours.

Any child who expressed an interest in a type of toy and was then told that no you can't play with that because it's for the opposite sex, is bound to start questioning them self.

Perhaps you didn't mean to use that as an example? (Because it's a worrying one.)

That's a really silly comment.