To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

Do you honestly believe there aren’t people who will exploit ghis, that there aren’t men who deliberately expose themselves to people for sexual gratification?

Of course I don't believe that.

^Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

No one would choose that. But EVERYTHING in that statement is what what the biological women of the world have been subject to for too many lifetimes and for biological women the horrific surgeries are FORCED. We’ve fought hard as hell for these safe spaces away from this and are not transphobic for wanting to keep them.

We have again the statement that gender is about so much more than genitalia. What is that something more?
See, I think gender doesn’t, in concrete terms exist. Like religion, it’s a belief system, about behaviours which are appropriate for persons of each sex. Persuade me I’m wrong. Tell me, concretely, what this gender thing which is so much more than genitalia is.

Do you honestly believe there aren’t people who will exploit ghis, that there aren’t men who deliberately expose themselves to people for sexual gratification?

Do you honestly think people everywhere are brain-dead idiots who will not be able to spot the difference between someone privately putting their clothes on and some raging gawping perv? Or feel too hog-tied by their poor understanding of Equality legislation to do anything about it?? What a very low opinion you have of all people.

That should say...

In general, women, who are the ones who have been socialised to be nice are the ones who must stand up to people socialised as male who feel entitled to wave their willies and turned on my the female bodies they see?

There reason why my question is important is that it is widely accepted in free democratic societies that people cannot be made to conform to belief systems they do not wish to participate in. If gender is more than a belief system, or to put it another way, a feeling, we need to see objective proof of that.

Do you honestly think people everywhere are brain-dead idiots who will not be able to spot the difference between someone privately putting their clothes on and some raging gawping perv? Or feel too hog-tied by their poor understanding of Equality legislation to do anything about it?? What a very low opinion you have of all people.

Why should my 5 year old, or my elderly neighbour have to challenge a perv?

Don't you know anything about safeguarding?

You can’t talk about the fetish issue without being labelled a transphobe - at present the trans movement talks as though fetishisistic cross dressing doesn’t exist because they know it absolutely weakens the case for self ID. Have a look at this: transgenderreality.com/2016/06/22/is-there-such-a-thing-as-autogynephilia/

There’s also a thread there where trans women are discussing their belief that, in taking female hormones, they have become less intelligent, less funny, worse at driving, mentally unstable... it’s amazing that those who want to be women have such shockingly low opinions of women:

transgenderreality.com/2016/06/22/is-there-such-a-thing-as-autogynephilia/

Seriously, stop it.

You stop it! When is your five year old going to be alone in a changing room? What do you think your 85 year old neighbour would do now if someone were to make her feel uncomfortable? You seem to think it's a given that this will happen more frequently if transpeople can obtain their GRC through self-ID, whereas in reality transpeople are already in your changing rooms, transmen might be in the ladies right now for all we know, and you aren't clutching your pearls over what on earth Betty next door will do about it tomorrow if she happens to feel uncomfortable, are you?

Sorry, incorrect second link: transgenderreality.com/2017/10/07/stereotype-based-fears-over-hrt-side-effects/

Furthermore, just because we'll never stop predatory men entirely doesn't mean we should make it easier or even legal for them, ffs.

Quite. Why have laws at all? You can't stop people committing crime after all.

If women are not believed when we report actual rape - how can we expect women to be believed when we report someone leering at us?

Roly-poly you are arguing for a world where more women and children are abused.

Don't you know anything about safeguarding?

None of these people have a clue.

Roly-poly you are arguing for a world where more women and children are abused.

None of these people care.

Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

And then there's the likes of Travis Alabanza, Eddie Izzard, Pips Bunce... people who have had no surgery whatsoever, are highly unlikely to & just identify as female part of the time. Or somebody like Alex Drummond, "widening the bandwidth of women" by putting a dress on. They all fit securely under Stonewall's definition of trans.

Should they also have free access to female changing rooms / dormitories / rape shelters? Where are we drawing the line?

Why should my 5 year old, or my elderly neighbour have to challenge a perv?

Why you think they would be more likely to encounter a perv is beyond me, because right now any man who fancies it can walk into a women's changing room with a wig on, or indeed just say he is a transman with a vagina, and your neighbour - and your unaccompanied 5 year old - would both have to challenge him if we went on to wave his dick around.

and you aren't clutching your pearls over what on earth Betty next door will do about it tomorrow if she happens to feel uncomfortable, are you

So fucking dismissive.

The naïveté is staggering.

Most cases of flashing aren’t some salivating bloke masturbating at a woman. They’re usually men who get off on showing their penis to women or kids. This is not an uncommon crime.

Roly-poly you are arguing for a world where more women and children are abused.

I'm saying you're trying to protect against a world that we already live in.

Do you honestly think people everywhere are brain-dead idiots who will not be able to spot the difference between someone privately putting their clothes on and some raging gawping perv?

What about someone who just gets a kick out of flashing his todger around? Not necessarily in a really ostentatious way, just knowing that he is exposing his penis and making other people uncomfortable? Some men would just get off on knowing that their very presence makes women uncomfortable, they wouldnt have to do anything particularly 'pervy'. What would women be able to do in that situation?

That kind of behaviour is not exactly unheard of amongst men is it?

right now any man who fancies it can walk into a women's changing room with a wig on, or indeed just say he is a transman with a vagina,

The fault of people like you and your nonsensical ideology.

So fucking dismissive.

And you spend all day trying to empathise with my concerns, and the concerns of women like me - on this thread and others.

What about someone who just gets a kick out of flashing his todger around? Not necessarily in a really ostentatious way, just knowing that he is exposing his penis and making other people uncomfortable? Some men would just get off on knowing that their very presence makes women uncomfortable, they wouldnt have to do anything particularly 'pervy'. What would women be able to do in that situation?

This.

Nah mate, done for the day.

"Why you think they would be more likely to encounter a perv is beyond me, because right now any man who fancies it can walk into a women's changing room with a wig on, or indeed just say he is a transman with a vagina, and your neighbour - and your unaccompanied 5 year old - would both have to challenge him if we went on to wave his dick around."

I don't think self ID will necessarily make it more likely that we'll encounter a perv, @RatRolyPoly - but at least now, if I do encounter such a perv in the ladies' loos or changing room, I can legitimately tell him to get out. If self-ID comes in, he will have the legal right to say "I identify as female despite the fact I have my willy out so I can stay, and you can fuck off!"

That's the difference.