To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

What saddens me is the shutting down of discussion about serious issues, through manipulative and incorrect accusations of bigotry.

I have always been a huge supporter of trans rights, and continue to be so. I can’t imagine how difficult it must be to grow up with that sort of dysphoria and navigate a world that can be very cruel.

However, my concern isn’t with dysphoric trans people. My concern is with those who would undoubtedly exploit self ID laws to abuse women and children. Discussion needs to be had about ways to enable trans people to access whatever they need / are entitled to, without making the world inherently more dangerous for women (and for trans people too - trans women want access to women’s spaces partly because they are in danger in men’s spaces, so they are similarly at risk if this becomes law).

The feminism boards are frequented by multiple trans women who feel silenced and threatened by the current trans movement, and by many lesbians who are being manipulated and guilted into accepting sexual partners with male genitalia or else being called transphobes. That’s the homophobia issue here.

If you believe that trans people have dysphoria, you are classed as Truscum by the current trans movement. You are a transphobe. So if dysphoria isn’t a requirement, what makes someone trans? Have a look at the Transgender Reality blog which shares screenshots from trans- focussed subreddits - endless stories of men getting aroused by “sissification porn” (itself hideously misogynistic), getting aroused by being called “ma’am”, getting arohsed by gaining entry to women’s changing rooms or toilets. Read that and tell me this is not a concern. This is not about trans people - these people are not dysphoric at all. They are fetishists.

If you state scientific fact - that is not biologically possible to change sex - you’re a transphobe, even when you ultimately fully support trans rights. We are being forced to agree that black is white, that day is night and threatened when we do not. That is not inclusivity and equality.

I am appalled by puberty blockers, having some personal experience of the drug used. This does not make me transphobic, it makes me extremely concerned about the wellbeing of children.

This debate must not be shut down, which is what your post attempts to do. It is nuanced, and you need to look a bit more closely at what’s really going on here.

Chocolate, that is horrifying.

I would bet my house that those people were not trans women. They were predatory men, of the very kind that self ID would enable. I would be interested to see how inappropriate/ abusive behaviour like that compares between self-identified 'trans women' with no diagnosis or GRC, and trans women who do indeed have a GRC. My guess is that the former would look significantly worse.

Seriously, how is this even in transwomen's interests? That men could do shitty things like this while being defined as trans people when they're not?

The majority of NHS wards are single sex bays in mixed wards. Whenever you go in or out of the bay you are seen by and see patients from other bays, including those of the opposite sex

I can't speak for all NHS wards, as I haven't seen them all, but the ones that we have been frequently sadly far too, over a number of hospitals in the past ten years have not been like this. Male wards. Female wards. Very separate.

Have people who describe Mumsnet as a hotbed of homophobia and rabid transphobia never accessed another Internet forum (that is not The Guardian comments section)?

Mumsnet's unique selling point has long been its cohort of well educated, articulate and overwhelmingly liberal and left-leaning users. The lefty bleeding heart thing is part of the virtual DNA of the place, such that I, as a person who considers herself left-leaning and socially liberal, have occasionally noted that it must seem a cold house for conservatives, of both the small c and capital C variety.

Have those condemning the Mumsnet massive for intolerance and bigotry paused to consider why a cohort of broadly and often committedly leftist and socially liberal users should suddenly turn rogue? I mean, it's not something you see every day, if that is indeed what has happened.

Of course, it is not what has happened at all. The gender critical position, as intelligently and articulately espoused on Mumsnet, is that the transgender ideology as dictated to us by the bien pensant in media and politics is fundamentally illiberal and regressive. The gender critical argument is grounded in concern for the welfare of both adult women and, if that is not of great matter to you, the health, safety and welfare of both boy and girl children.

The very reason Mumsnet is being flagged as a hotbed of transphobia and hounded by trans activists is NOT because one encounters here - as one does on countless other web fora which remain apparently immune to the attentions of the New Thought Police - disgusting, dehumanising and sexually demeaning references to trans people. No. Mumsnet is being targeted because it has allowed women to present a cogent, well reasoned and logical counterpoint to the oppressively imposed trans narrative.

Bigotry and intolerance are easily dismissed; coherent political positions, grounded in clear analysis and scientific rationale, much less so. What is intolerable to many is the spectacle of women refusing to back down in the face of oppressive, thought-deadening mantras and newspeak which deny the very fundamentals of our existence as full humans.

Excellent post softday.

stands up and applauds SoftDay

Besides which, remember the recent twitter thread where men were polled to see if they would ever have sex with a trans woman?

The responses were all extremely negative and a very high proportion were disgustingly transphobic, and yet there wasn’t a single TRA pointing this out, no attacks at all.

But a group of women discussing the dangers of self ID, or a lesbian stating they are not aroused by penises? The attacks, the label of transphobia and the threats of violence come thick and fast.

Wouldn’t an intelligent person wonder why this is?

No doubt I'll get flamed (and maybe I'm being naive) but I genuinely think that most people go into changing rooms to get changed, and into toilets to do their business.

You will always get predatory types who will abuse this. And yes, the majority - though not all - are men. For those in a refuge / who have been abused in any way by men (and many of us have been there) I can understand that this can cause a problem, and this needs addressing. I don't think it's helpful however, to ascribe blame to one gender for the faults of a minority.

We know it's wrong to blame all Muslims for terrorism. We know it's wrong to blame all white working class men for paedophilia.

But here we have a group of people who are - for the first time - being allowed to fit into social norms, and although we are well on the way to this - we are not there yet.

As a feminist, I defend my daughter's rights to be a woman. She was born with a penis - and her birth certificate states "male" because of it. However she is as female as I am. Gender is about so much more than genitalia.

The responses were all extremely negative and a very high proportion were disgustingly transphobic, and yet there wasn’t a single TRA pointing this out, no attacks at all.

IIRC, what we did see in response was a series of misogynistic and hostile discourses in which women's vaginas were compared unfavourably to those of trans women post surgery....

You will always get predatory types who will abuse this.

Very true. But as things stand right now, if I’m in a changing room and a man comes in and starts deliberately displaying his genitals, staff can ask them to leave. What do you think that man would say if self ID were the law?

Furthermore, just because we'll never stop predatory men entirely doesn't mean we should make it easier or even legal for them, ffs.

What do you think that man would say if self ID were the law?

Um, inappropriate behavior in a changing room would still be grounds enough to ask someone to leave...

Self ID is on the way to being the law, so we need to find a way.

We cannot allow the misdemeanours of a few prevent a whole group of people being allowed to exist as normal human beings. It's oppression.

We don't stop believing rape victims because a small minority of women have lied about it. And neither should we!

@RatRolyPoly

Agreed. Inappropriate behaviour is inappropriate regardless of who is displaying it.

Walking around naked with a penis wouldn’t be inappropriate behaviour though would it, it would be legal as long as that person claimed to be female.

We cannot allow the misdemeanours of a few prevent a whole group of people being allowed to exist as normal human beings. It's oppression.

I haven’t seen a single GC woman state that they should be prevented - they want a discussion about how this could be achieved, and if they so much as arrange a meeting to have this discussion they are attacked - verbally, digitally and physically.

Yes of course. In the same way that walking round with a vagina would be fine. We're talking about inappropriate behaviour - directed at someone. It's an expectation that people will be naked in a changing room.

Deathgrip

My experiences have been the opposite. The trans young people I work with are desperate for a conversation. They are met with aggression and lack of acceptance at every turn.

We cannot allow the misdemeanours of a few prevent a whole group of people being allowed to exist as normal human beings. It's oppression.

Ridiculous hyperbole. Women's rights to privacy, dignity and the addressing of our sex based oppression is not itself "oppression" of biological males.

Walking around naked with a penis wouldn’t be inappropriate behaviour though would it, it would be legal as long as that person claimed to be female.

Er, you can have codes of conduct in places like changing rooms you know. Like in the swimming pool there's always a big sign up saying, "no kissing, no heavy petting" - and yet kissing is usually considered appropriate in public. What makes you think a changing room can't request it's users to be reasonably discreet? i.e. unless you're actually looking for someone's genitals you're not likely to get a full frontal showing?

Yes of course. In the same way that walking round with a vagina would be fine. We're talking about inappropriate behaviour - directed at someone. It's an expectation that people will be naked in a changing room.

Yes, people of the same sex. Here you show how very considerate you are of most women's feelings.

Walking around with a vagina in a women’s changing room is fine.

Walking around with an exposed penis in a women’s changing room, potentially around young girls, isn’t fine.

If a man stands there for 20 minutes deliberately showing their penis to kids, and then argues “I’m just getting dressed, honest! And I’m a woman!” that’s an issue.

Do you honestly believe there aren’t people who will exploit ghis, that there aren’t men who deliberately expose themselves to people for sexual gratification?

Ridiculous hyperbole. Women's rights to privacy, dignity and the addressing of our sex based oppression is not itself "oppression" of biological males.

I don't think anyone's opinion should be described as "ridiculous". The trans women I am talking about are women. They were born, unfortunately, with a penis. They should be allowed to enjoy the freedoms you outline above.

I don't think defending women's rights is "ridiculous" or a hyperbole. I have lived this through my child. It's a struggle every single day.

if a man was acting inappropriately in a changing room, my almost adult son or partner would also be able to enter said changing room and act as concerned women on my behalf. Given the self id logic.

It hasn't been well thought through. This will cause all sorts of unpleasant unintended consequences.

If you do have an issue with a self id man waving his dick around, the woman's male sons and partners, relatives etc will accompany that woman going forward, into said changing rooms, and say they also self id as women. It will become ludicrous.

It's a complex issue. On one hand I have no issues with transwomen using womens space. However, I hadn't appreciated the fetish angle until the recent post above, which does muddy the waters for me more than it did. And the hospital issues with touching sleeping patients is hideous. I was a bit more on the fence before that one.

Um, inappropriate behavior in a changing room would still be grounds enough to ask someone to leave...

Stop being so fucking naive.

So my 5 year old DD is supposed to know that's inaoropriate behaviour and what to do about it, is she?

My 85 year old neighbour is supposed to feel bold enough to be able to challenge a male bodied person making her feel uncomfortable in a changing room.

In general, w who have been socialised to be nice are the ones who must stand up to people socialised as male who feel entitled to wave their willies and turned on my the female bodies they see?

Seriously, stop it.

Tell me, if dealing with abuse in an individual level, when it occurs is the solution, why do we have single sex spaces in the first place?