To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

And you spend all day trying to empathise with my concerns

What concerns of yours about your rights as a woman to privacy and dignity have I dismissed?

When is your five year old going to be alone in a changing room? What do you think your 85 year old neighbour would do now if someone were to make her feel uncomfortable?

My 5 year old comes in the changing room with me, but I don't always have her in my sight at all times. I don't make her come in the toilet cubicle with me like I did when she was 3, for example - I'm not concerned about her coming across erect willies, not part of my risk assessment currently.

As she gets older she'll get more independence to change without me. That will be curtailed if I have to factor in male bodies.

My elderly neighbour goes swimming and gets changed without having to worry about the make gaze.

Do you seriously think an 85 year old is going to be listened to "he looked at me funny?". No, she'll probably stop using that facility.

What about women who's religion forbids them to change with male people - should they just stay home too?

Why do concerns about cis men abusing gender recognition laws always translate into shitting on transpeople from a great height on Mumsnet?

What concerns of yours are not being heard by me Rat? What should I empathise with? That your male friends might not be welcome in the ladies?

Why you think they would be more likely to encounter a perv is beyond me, because right now any man who fancies it can walk into a women's changing room with a wig on, or indeed just say he is a transman with a vagina, and your neighbour - and your unaccompanied 5 year old - would both have to challenge him if we went on to wave his dick around.

And that is a bloody good argument for a third space for transpeople.

Why do concerns about cis men abusing gender recognition laws always translate into shitting on transpeople from a great height on Mumsnet?

Why are the personal feelings of biological males expected to be put first and centred in a way that translates into shitting on women from a great height?

Do you honestly think people everywhere are brain-dead idiots who will not be able to spot the difference between someone privately putting their clothes on and some raging gawping perv? Or feel too hog-tied by their poor understanding of Equality legislation to do anything about it?? What a very low opinion you have of all people.

Except gawping is not illegal. Telling the police or security that "He's looking at me funny" will get you nowhere.

Making crime the height of the bar is disgraceful. So much intimidating behaviour is entirely legal. A smirk, an over-long stare, the moisturising of one's thighs.

All easily considered pervy behaviour when done by men in a women's changing room. None of it something that you can stop because none of it is illegal.

But what's worse, is that you are taking a group of men who are officially included as transwomen, fetishist cross dressers, and actively campaigning on their behalf to access women's spaces. Where the boundary violation is part of the thrill.

You know full well that men with gender dysphoria is only a part of this. You are actively promoting a fetish, at women's expense.

spanna you've said a few times that challenging heteronormativity is best for all of us.

I spent several years obsessing over wondering whether or not I might be non binary. I don't "feel" male or female (what does that "feel like" anyway?) I am female bodied but strongly prefer clothes, interests, hair styles etc that are traditionally coded masculine. In terms of self-perception I fit everything that I have read about NB. I'm certainly not "cis."

But then I thought - hang on. If I am not in fact a woman, but rather NB, am I not just confirming a heteronormative view of what a woman is?

If I am indeed not a woman or not a real woman, does that mean that "cis" women..... do innately have an inner self which correlates with the feminine gender?

Because that's one of the most heteronormative things I can imagine, that we carefully release non-conforming women from the straitjacket of gender stereotypes by insisting we are not women at all, and then by extension reinforce that 'real' women or 'cis' women, the majority of women, are naturally or innately feminine. That seems to me to be a huge step backwards.

Nah. I'm a woman, I'm just not very good at it and that's fine.

This just reads as just another one of those goady posts designed to bring Mumsnet down.

I'm going to say goodbye to this thread now.

I've learned a lot and I am going to go on thinking about people's concerns and discussion points. Thank you to anyone who engaged in constructive discussion, and anyone who high-fived, fist-bumped and hugged me for sticking my head over the parapet.

Yanbu

Except gawping is not illegal. Telling the police or security that "He's looking at me funny" will get you nowhere.

Fuck sake, I'm pissy so I shouldn't be posting but I'm just popping back to say something I have already said...

Something doesn't have to be illegal for a swimming pool, or anywhere else for that matter, to say it is not permitted in their changing rooms

A big sign saying, "No flashing, no gawping; manager's decision is final".

FFS is anyone here actually capable of not blowing a problem out of all reasonable proportion?? Making more out of this than needs to be made smacks of an agenda. I wonder what on earth that might be.

I'm coming with you @spannablue - let's hit the pub!

Great. I've spent the last few years convincing my trans daughter that she has a right to be female, but according to many views above, that's all nonsense. Because she might actually be a pervert.

She's not, by the way. She's a great kid who has had a hell of a time at the hands of people who won't accent her.

yabu,

wanting sex segregated spaces is not transphobic.

talking about our biology is not transphobic.

not wanting to curtail trans trights, wanting to protect womens rights to privacy and dignity withoput having men who are transitionsing to women, or just men pretending because they can, in female spaces.

*accept

Thank you to anyone who engaged in constructive discussion, and anyone who high-fived, fist-bumped and hugged me for sticking my head over the parapet.

"Thank you to anyone who validated my personal beliefs and disrespect of other women's rights, boo to those who didn't"

@karenna - I don't think anyone is saying that someone like your daughter is a pervert - frankly if she were in the changing rooms or loos with me, I probably wouldn't notice, and if I did, I would not be worried or feel threatened.

What people are saying is that there are perverts who will be able to use self-ID as a defence against being challenged in the ladies' loos or changing rooms - "I identify as female, so I have every right to be in here".

Do you want a person like that in the changing room with your daughter? Do you want your daughter to have no legal cause to say to such a person - please leave, this is the ladies? If I had a daughter, be they natal or trans, I would want them to be safe from perverts, and I am sure you do too - and self-ID has the very real potential to make your dd less safe.

As many have already pointed out, it’s not those like your daughter they’re concerned about - it’s those who are exploiting your daughter’s suffering to attack, silence and abuse women with impunity.

Your daughter is equally at risk from these men if self-ID happens, possibly more so. But she and everyone like here is collateral damage in the agenda of those extremists. Her safety doesn’t matter. Her experience doesn’t matter - it’s erased and invalidated. If she’s dysphoric and believes all trans people are dysphoric, she’s a truscum transphobe. I’ve spoken to many trans women like your daughter, those who have been dysphoric from a young age, and transitioned at a young age, who feel massively threatened by the current movement, whose fertility is also collateral damage to justify the existence of middle aged fetishists.

It’s not just women who are victims of the extreme end of the trans agenda.

Yes, @Ereshkigal - I am sure that 'constructive debate' does not include those of us who have attempted to put forward our concerns in a polite fashion - only those who have agreed with the OP.

Amazing how you disappear when asked about how we are meant to recognise people with gender dysphoria from fetishist cross dressers.

A big sign saying, "No flashing, no gawping; manager's decision is final".

Women 'flash' all the time in a female changing room, for goodness sake. It's called getting changed.

You know full well the sign won't say women, it's okay to show your bits, transwomen, no it isn't.

The result will be that men, any man, can, in your words
flash'.

karenna acknowledging men with autogynephilia is not calling your child a pervert. It is however, a strawman argument.

@SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius

I understand what you're saying. But how do we differentiate? If what I read above is to be believed - the only way to counteract this is to ban all trans women from female changing rooms.

That includes my daughter (and many like her) - because how do you differentiate? So effectively - by this logic, she is banned just in case she is a pervert.

Whilst I understand this point, to me it's the same as for a fake rape victim case resulting in changing the law, so real rape victims aren't believed.

We will always get people who abuse the systems. It's not right however, that the real victims should be penalised as a result.

@Datun

I can assure you it isn't. I speak from very real experience (like many on here, I'm sure) - this isn't a fake drama to me or many others, and I wouldn't wast my time on a straw man argument.

For the avoidance of doubt, gender critical feminists are not saying all transwomen are perverts.

They are saying that, increasingly, dangerous and perverted men are identifying as trans, whether they are or not. Precisely because any criteria has now been recognised as unnecessary.

Hence the Ian Huntleys of this world being able to say that they are in actual fact a transwomen. And, according to transactivists no one can say otherwise.

karenna

It is a strawman though. When gender critical feminists aren't worried about predatory men, and you say oh my God are you saying my child's a pervert.