To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

Do you truly believe, with the level of peak trans that has occurred across the population, that a trans women would feel comfortable in the women's changing room now? Knowing that so many women do not want them there? I wouldn't feel comfortable in that position and would be campaigning for a third space. It would take a certain type of trans women to not give a shit about that, imo.

Well I suspect our experiences are different, as I don’t know anyone who would have an issue with a trans person using the changing rooms they felt most comfortable in. Sites like MN taken in isolation would imply that the majority of people are vehemently against a trans woman using a women’s changing room, but MN is notoriously a bit of an echo chamber on trans issues. In the real world, most people don’t give a shit and are happy focusing on themselves instead of analysing who else is in the space. I don’t know a single woman in my friendship group who’d object to a trans woman sharing a changing rooms with them. I reckon that’s because we tend to socialise with people who have similar views/political leanings, but I don’t see enough hysteria offline to suggest trans women as a whole don’t feel safe using the women’s changing rooms. And if there is no third space it’s a pretty clear choice.

No. You may want there to be a "one size fits all" answer to this; oh, how easy that would be; but I'm afraid what's proportionate and legitimate in one circumstance may not be in another. Which is why the GRA contains exceptions, including the provision to make further exceptions on a case by case basis.

Can you answer the question please with regard to the woman's ward. As that doesn't answer it at all. Just fudges things over. With no proper answer. As usual.

Well I suspect our experiences are different, as I don’t know anyone who would have an issue with a trans person using the changing rooms they felt most comfortable in.

What is your definition of a "trans person"? Unless you live in Goldsmiths student union building, I suspect you are wrong. Do you think fetishistic cross dressers should be able to do so? They are "trans people" according to most trans organisations.

Can you answer the question please with regard to the woman's ward. As that doesn't answer it at all. Just fudges things over. With no proper answer. As usual

What are you banging on about? On my imaginary hospital ward that I conjured into existence to demonstrate what "proportionate means" would mean, you want me to give you answers about this fantasy scenario?? Okay, if you like wasting time...

But no, in my imaginary hospital ward there are currently two wards, men and women, each having a couple of separate rooms and an open ward. A third space is quite patently not the answer, not least because in my imaginary hospital there is no third space, but mostly because that measure is not proportionate when you can achieve the same aim by using one of the individual rooms.

Well I suspect our experiences are different, as I don’t know anyone who would have an issue with a trans person using the changing rooms they felt most comfortable in.

Every woman I know in real life does not feel comfortable with this. Both in the women's organisation where I work, and with men and women in my personal life. Not one single person thinks it's ok. I know this because I debate and discuss this every day. In real life. Because it's necessary.

I don't have an issue sharing a changing room with a genuine trans women - as long as if she still has her penis she is discreet.

I have a problem with a law allowing any man that says he is a woman entering a changing room where is is able to flash his penis around and view my body with no legal repercussion.

I think YABU to assume your imagination of what's going on, is more valid than others qualifications and experience!

Read for yourself from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th Edition: DSM-5: does this tally with what YOUR understanding of "Trans" is?

Gender Dysphoria (p456)

" Adolescents and adults with late-onset gen­der dysphoria frequently engage in transvestic behavior with sexual excitement . The
majority of these individuals are gynephilic or sexually attracted to other posttransition
natal males with late-onset gender dysphoria. A substantial percentage of adult maleswith late-onset gender dysphoria cohabit with or are married to natal females. After gen­der transition, many self-identify as lesbian ."

"Natal femaleswith the late-onset form do not have co-occurring transvestic behavior with sexual excitement."

P702-704 ‘Transvestic Disorder

Transvestic disorder occurs in heterosexual (or bisexual) adolescent and adult males (rarely in females) for whom cross-dressing behavior generates sexual excitement and causes distress and/or impairment without drawing their primary gender into question. It is occasionally accompanied by gender dysphoria. An individual with transvestic disorder who also has clinically significant gender dysphoria can be given both diagnoses. In many cases of late-onset gender dysphoria in gynephilic natal males, transvestic behavior with sexual excitement is a precursor .’

‘Associated Features Supporting Diagnosis Transvestic disorder in men is often accompanied by autogynephilia (i.e., a male’s paraphilic tendency to be sexually aroused by the thought or image of himself as a woman). Autogynephilic fantasies and behaviors may focus on the idea of exhibiting female physiological functions (e.g., lactation, menstruation), engaging in stereotypically feminine behavior (e.g., knitting), or possessing female anatomy (e.g., breasts).’

‘Specifiers

The presence of fetishism decreases the likelihood of gender dysphoria in men with transvestic disorder. The presence of autogynephilia increases the likelihood of gender dysphoria in men with transvestic disorder .’

What are you banging on about? On my imaginary hospital ward that I conjured into existence to demonstrate what "proportionate means" would mean, you want me to give you answers about this fantasy scenario?? Okay, if you like wasting time...

Not very well answered. In fact not answered at all. I'm not surprised. Because there isn't an answer, apart from a third space. But being rude only serves to make you look a bit silly.

i don’t know a single woman in my friendship group who’d object to a trans woman sharing a changing rooms with them

Neither do i, even the racist homophobic islamaphobic ones

Because they think they want ti be women so good luck to them

They are going to have a lot less tolerance when the piss takers start arriving

Every woman I know in real life does not feel comfortable with this. Both in the women's organisation where I work, and with men and women in my personal life. Not one single person thinks it's ok. I know this because I debate and discuss this every day. In real life. Because it's necessary.

These statements are so lazy. Perhaps if one is the sort of performatively woke type who will start an argument about it average people just humour it. I wonder why only 18% of people (including only 27% 18-24 year olds) polled for Pink News support legal gender self ID?

@RatRolyPoly

Thank you for taking the time to come up with the hosptial scenario. I think I have said it before, but I do appreciate you actually debating this with something substantial.

I feel like it could still be problematic, for example if a woman on the ward was worried that the transwoman could walk past as she was undressing etc. but as you say it's a specific scenario without an easy solution.

I still believe that third spaces are a more obvious answer and that perhaps there could be more campaigning for that.

They are going to have a lot less tolerance when the piss takers start arriving

The tolerance is already going really. Pretty much gone. I think this campaign has done a huge disservice to some of the trans population, who I agree did live peacefully and happily alongside us once. They've been thrown under the bus, along with women.

I have a problem with a law allowing any man that says he is a woman entering a changing room where is is able to flash his penis around and view my body with no legal repercussion.

This. What terrible prejudice though, according to certain open minded and woke people on this thread.

Not very well answered. In fact not answered at all. I'm not surprised. Because there isn't an answer, apart from a third space.

Again, I'm not following you. Didn't you ask if a third space wasn't the answer? I have expressed why, in my scenario, that wouldn't be proportionate. What more were you looking for? Because to me that's looking like, well, the answer

Sorry you thought I was rude, it wasn't intentional. I have quite a casual turn of phrase but I usually try to rein it in because it does seem to cause consternation on MN. But then again, when I do rein it in people think I must be very well-to-do; there must be a balance I'm not striking

I have a problem with a law allowing any man that says he is a woman entering a changing room where is is able to flash his penis around and view my body with no legal repercussion.

Why do you think Swim England pulled their guidelines which said that women objecting to it needed to be "educated" when it was put under scrutiny by Man Friday, Rat and others?

Why are you using banned misogynistic slurs about women who say things you don't like?

I wonder why only 18% of people (including only 27% 18-24 year olds) polled for Pink News support legal gender self ID

Probably because the majority don't agree with it. As I dont. And they can finally see the risks / bigger picture.

We have had four trans women on our female wards in he last 1.5 years and all of them have been moved to private rooms for inappropriate behaviour. All were male bodied, none of them had a GRC. Never in all my years have we removed a women from a ward for removing her clothing and masturbating in the middle of a ward. We have never removed a woman for sexually touching another sleeping patient. We have never had to call security because a woman was threatening a nurse with rape.

I don’t believe the above behaviour is typical of trans women but I believe changing the law would make it easier for men to enter women’s spaces and behave like this. Why don’t women want to protect other women?

I wouldn’t want any female friend or relative in a ward with a male bodied female.

Don’t see how the hospital example washes - if the trans woman in the example was really viewed as female she would be on the ward, same as all the other women, leaving the side room for medical cases. I thought that wouldn’t have been acceptable anyway, same as using the disabled toilet?

X post

I don't understand how OP can think that seeing famous trans women 'subverting heteronormativity' could somehow protect against predatory men, but disallowing self ID wouldn't.

As with many people on here, it is not trans women I have any issue with. I've probably already shared a bathroom or changing room with trans women and never knew. A real trans woman is no more a threat than any other random woman I might come into contact with.

My problem is with predatory men who could take advantage of the proposed new law. Not trans women, but predatory men who pretend to be trans women. At the moment, if a trans person has an official diagnosis, GRC, and has transitioned or is in the process of it, that's pretty convincing proof that they are trans. Bloody hell, if you really are stuck in the wrong body, getting a GRC seems the very least you'd want to do, even if you won't be having surgery. But self ID, whereby anyone can just become a man or woman at will when it suits them, creates a horrible open avenue for abuse.

If you don't think predatory men are a problem, I can only assume you have not lived as a woman in our society. And if you don't think women deserve reasonable protection in law against them....fuck right off.

You sum up my thoughts perfectly AynRand.

1984

We have had four trans women on our female wards in he last 1.5 years and all of them have been moved to private rooms for inappropriate behaviour. All were male bodied, none of them had a GRC. Never in all my years have we removed a women from a ward for removing her clothing and masturbating in the middle of a ward. We have never removed a woman for sexually touching another sleeping patient. We have never had to call security because a woman was threatening a nurse with rape.

This makes me despair, and the refusal of the op and similar posters to admit the truth of what is happening, and their insistence we are just a bunch of bigots, makes me despair even more.

Eresh "Why are our posts "rage"..."

Have you really not noticed the frequent usage of the word rage by GC posters in that context to describe their feelings? Try using advanced search and you will see how prevalent it is. You've used it yourself quite a lot.

Noqont "And walking in and out of said room into the women's ward, where women will be in different states of undress."

The majority of NHS wards are single sex bays in mixed wards. Whenever you go in or out of the bay you are seen by and see patients from other bays, including those of the opposite sex. Patients are encouraged to wear dressing gowns when leaving their bay to protect their privacy but it's not compulsory because comfort and medical well-being trumps privacy when your in a ward (in most cases, not all).

My point being, that situation already exists, so it doesn't hold up as a barrier to single occupancy room use as described by rat.