To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

Yes Erishkgal i was agreeing with your post. Sorry, should have been clearer - I meant the OP was not making sense.

Ok no worries Sloth.

'transwomen are always very well groomed, high heels, make up and are vocal about how important it is to look after yourself etc etc...'

Only the ones on telly.

Does no one is the 'trans activist non-binary bollocks' world not have either a job or real life to get on with ? Or do they just spend all their days making up stuff and inventing pointless labels , that virtually NO ONE cares about - on Internet forums. ?

I would suggest putting a very brave foot (be it a male or female one) into the real world for a while and get a grip on reality. Almost the entire real world is mystified as to how this subject is even a conversation in the first place. It's a non issue.

Do you have a penis ? Yes. Then you are a Male (and where there are segregated facilities you go in the one. )

Do you have a vagina , ? Yes . Then you are a Female (and where there are segregated facilities you go in the one. )

It's not homophobia/ transphobia or any fucking phobia. If you want to dress as a man a woman or a giraffe, crack on. Doesn't worry me , you can ACT as a woman all you want, fine with me, but if you have a dick, sorry - when it comes to sex segregated facilities - you are a bloke. You might be a bloke who wants to be a woman. But all the time you retain your penis, you're not. Your a bloke. There is no other possible way to explain it.

but if you have a dick, sorry - when it comes to sex segregated facilities - you are a bloke. You might be a bloke who wants to be a woman. But all the time you retain your penis, you're not. Your a bloke. There is no other possible way to explain it.

YY. If only they respected that instead of trying to force themselves into women's spaces. We would be behind them if they asked for third spaces and respectful alternatives. But this? No.

spannablue that’s the ones PEOPLE see and recognise.
How are those people, the ones in the limelight, actually help in destroying gender normative attitudes???
By bringing themselves into mainstream political and media culture they are prompting a discussion on the arbitrariness of gender categories and by adhering so strictly to those categories, they are actually reinforcing them.

Unless of course you are considering that they are actually Male/men who are embracing the female ‘gender category’

Does no one is the 'trans activist non-binary bollocks' world not have either a job or real life to get on with ? Or do they just spend all their days making up stuff and inventing pointless labels , that virtually NO ONE cares about - on Internet forums.

Funnily enough, when people care about something deeply they’re usually about to engage with it, talk about it, write and think about it, on top of their normal daily commitments. I give a massive shit about suicide prevention so somehow I’m able to find time to volunteer for a relevant charity on top of my full time job and family commitments.

I’d also challenge your assertion that ‘nobody cares’ about it, you only have to glance at MN to see how many threads are posted every day by people who care about it an awful lot, on whichever side of the debate. The government cares about it, hence the discussion around laws related to self identification. Trans people care about it. Non trans allies care about it. You care about it a lot to be posting with such frequency and emotion about it.

By bringing themselves into mainstream political and media culture they are prompting a discussion on the arbitrariness of gender categories and to some extent the gender binary. These things are built on stereotyped ideas of how to 'be' women and men, which hasn't worked out too well for women so far. Subverting heteronormative discourses is good for women.

How does this stop predatory men from exploiting the potential dangers of self ID?

And do you not see that society taking them seriously because it still considers them to be men on a certain level doesn't actually subvert a fucking thing?

The sport thing would not work just because you have 'weedy' men and 'big' women.

Look at tennis. The Williams sisters are big strong women. But if they completed with men, men of whom are smaller than them they would be in around the top 100 instead of the best in the world. And that's a no contact sport! Men's bodies are different to women's, its not just about size and weight.

In regards to the trans teenager that took the role of women's officer - I don't think the issue is just that she grew up with male privilege. It was also that she has no idea of the biological reality of being a woman and how this effects us in our lives. She also proved alot of people correct by only talking about trans issues once she was in the role.

It also feels a bit like women were given specifics roles as a way of positive discrimination, but now we're being told to hand those roles to transwomen because they are more discriminated than us. Why can't we all just have our own roles. Won't we eventually become the more discriminated against, then we'll have to go through this all again.

Munroe Bergdof, Lily Madigan and Paris Lees are subverting heteronormativity- the same heteronormativity that enables male violence against women and keeps our wages low.

They're not subverting anything. They're reinforcing gender stereotypes. As is the concept of nonbinary, with the likes of Pips Bunce signalling "female days" with dresses & makeup.

Actual subversion would be saying "Yes I like makeup, yes I wear dresses, AND I AM A MAN." Like Eddie Izzard used to before deciding that liking nail polish & high heels meant he had "girl genes". . I used to respect him when he was a man in dresses. Now I despise him.

The idea that whether someone is female or male depends on their brain & their personal tastes is regressive & sexist.

Thank you @LyndseyKola.

The truth is, I've spent three or more years watching these discussions online and not joining in because I didn't feel I had enough information or knowledge to make a reasonable contribution. I do now feel confident that I have the understanding to engage in discussion about most of the issues now but there are still some which I am learning about, and those are the things about which I try to ask questions and listen to people. Of course most online discourse doesn't follow this approach but sometimes I wish it did!

Predatory men will always be around, in whatever guise is available. Any changes to the self-ID law won't make a difference to that. This issue has been done to death in this thread so I'm not going to return to it.

Lots of people have pointed out that famous transwomen are reinforcing gender stereotypes. I'd turn that around and say that heteronormativity is reinforcing transwomen's gender expression. Yes, it's bad for all women.

I recently read Juno Roche's book 'Queer Sex'. I found the first few chapters unbearably sad. I can't quite believe I hadn't thought of this, but the book made me realise that the construction of new genitalia in transwomen appears to be designed and achieved with heterosexual men's pleasure in mind. The process is horrific. I won't give any more details here but have a look if you want to know more.

On the difference between gender and sex-

A transgender teenager suggested this thought experiment:

If my brain was somehow transported into a robot, what gender would that robot be?

If my brain was somehow transported into a robot, what gender would that robot be?

What time is it on Mars? If I were a rabbit, what would be my favourite colour?

It’s difficult OP, because on MN the posters who are vehemently ‘men are men and women are women and it depends on your genitals and you can’t ever change’ are much more vocal, not sure if they’re the minority or majority but they certainly seem to feel empowered to be openly bigoted at times with little recourse. You only need to google ‘mumsnet transphobia’ to see the reputation this site has.

So it feels like a losing battle sometimes to discuss it. But it isn’t, this is just one forum. But looking at the wider society it’s clear that transgenderism and more a more fluid understanding of gender identity is becoming more and more widespread, people are talking about it, trans people are feeling able to be more vocal, businesses and buildings consider how best to serve people of any gender, there are laws being debated to support people who are trans, our language is changing to move away from being cis as the default (the word cis is so well known now even though it’s controversial).

So on the whole, times are changing for the better for people who don’t fit the stereotypical ‘two gender binary’ mould. And a load of threads on a forum isn’t changing that.

I commend you for posting btw, I tend not to get too engaged in these types of threads as it’s futile in such a hostile environment like MN, but I think it’s always worth making your position known, even if not getting sucked into a ‘debate’, for those reading. As you never know who’s watching/lurking and how they’re feeling from what’s being said. And maybe it will help redress the balance.

That's what I was thinking @LyndseyKola.
I'm also interested in trying to understand what's at the root of the fear and angst and anger in these threads.

*@WakeUpFromYourDreamAndScream**

Non-binary is one of the most ridiculous terms I have ever heard. You are either a male or a female. That's it.

The world has gone mad*

What a load of twaddle. The world according to @WakeUpFromYourDreamAndScream

Thank god you don't live this - I hate it when people insist they live their lives according to what other people believe. My son had a hellish time growing up thanks to people like you.

Just to jump in with you Lyndsey, I think there are more people who are more accepting of gender fluidity and the legitimacy of transgenderism on here than would ever get stuck in with the threads.

You have to be a certain sort of person I think, to want to bash your head against that particular brick wall. I would know.

the construction of new genitalia in transwomen appears to be designed and achieved with heterosexual men's pleasure in mind.

But other than the reproductive aspect, that is essentially what a vagina is. The pleasure aspect of sex is there to get us to reproduce. Nature designed it to be pleasurable for men to have sex with, so it makes sense Dr's would copy that design. If a trans person wants a vagina that's not pleasurable for men to have sex with, what do they want? Some third made up thing? A clit and a pee whole with nothing else? That's not a vigina then is it. That's half a vagina. Why don't they ask for somthing else if that's what they want.

So true Rat! I simply don’t see the point as I’ve never come across anyone who is open to discussing it instead of having their mind already made up and just wanting to promote their views.

Maybe we should start a new movement of simply commenting on trans threads:

“If you’re reading this and you’re a trans woman, I accept you. You are a woman in my book, and you are welcome in the female spaces I frequent. I stand with you.”

Make it more obvious MN isn’t just full of transphobia. Show support for trans people lurking. Balance the scales a bit. No need to engage further, just state your support and walk away.

I think that’s gonna be my actions moving forwards. Anyone else?

Go and fight for a third unisex space you can all use without affecting women.

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed?

This would be a fucking epidemic!

Do you actually understand what you're saying? This would mean that nearly a quarter of trans kids would be dead from suicide.

This is total made up bollocks!

Fake facts are so much more effective than women's voices.

I say this whenever I see one of these threads:

Either a person can identify as being of a gender they were not born as, or they can't. If as a society we say that it can happen, we must allow it to happen. Self-declaration isn't perfect but it is the best and fairest way of doing things. A person born male but identifying as female should have the same rights as a person born female and identifying as female.

The argument always descends to "transwomen are only pretending because they want access to women's changing rooms and toilets to rape them." This is illogical and small-minded. Why would a woman rape another woman? Women are too often victims of sexual violence, why would they want to perpetrate it against another woman?

To me the common sense solution is to abolish gender divisions. Shared toilets, shared changing rooms, shared sporting competitions. This would solve the issue overnight because everyone would be treated equally, which is surely what we all want.

I have never seen anything homophobic on this site, If anything, there is a lot of worry about how the current trans movement could pressure on young gay people to see themselves a different sex rather than be comfortable not fitting the heterosexual stereotype of what a boy or girl should free, act or feel like.

ChelleDawg2020
Why dont you go fight for a third unisex space you can all use without harming other women who cant use them?