To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

Munroe Bergdof, Lily Madigan and Paris Lees are subverting heteronormativity- the same heteronormativity that enables male violence against women and keeps our wages low.

I sincerely don't understand your logic here. Can you explain?

@SlothSlothSloth Trans women, unless they pass completely or are slim and well coiffed (something used to oppress women), are also seen by society in general as somehow 'wrong' in a variety of ways so will equally be no more likely to reach positions of power.

Transmen are very rarely mentioned in these discussions. Why is that?

Violent and dangerous men exploit legal loopholes. Self ID highlights the blind spot.

And yes I’m concerned about genitals because I see a penis part of rape kit. Transwomen are most unfortunate because it is impossible to separate a good faith declaration of identity from that of a rapist.

The social practice of separate spaces for each sex has provided security along the lines of the Swiss cheese model
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model I don’t see that avoiding hurting someone’s feelings should mean that we abandon security

They'd be taking girls' and women's experience into politics etc in unprecedented ways. Which might actually be a good thing.

How many of these biological females are in positions of power in politics or industry, dear OP, compared to the biological males who identify as women? Why is it we only hear about these biological females generally when they are "men having babies"?

So it doesn't appear to work the way you think it does.

But can you not GET that the issue isn't the ‘core of people’ that are trans women but the others?

That by letting those transwoman ‘that are not in the core of what transwomen are’ we are letting some not so nice people coming into women spaces?
And that this is what makes it dangerous for women. Just like that man (he would be most offended to be called a man btw) could be seen as a danger to children??

It’s not different.

To protect transpeople rights, you also need to protect them from the ‘excesses’ from ‘the others’ who are taking adavantage.

Which brings us back to self id btw.....

The world largely sees the biological males as male and the biological females as female and they are treated accordingly.

@AynRandTheObjectivist - By bringing themselves into mainstream political and media culture they are prompting a discussion on the arbitrariness of gender categories and to some extent the gender binary. These things are built on stereotyped ideas of how to 'be' women and men, which hasn't worked out too well for women so far. Subverting heteronormative discourses is good for women.

They'd be taking girls' and women's experience into politics etc in unprecedented ways. Which might actually be a good thing.

You mean we, as women, need to wait for people with Male privilege to defend ourselves because otherwise no one is going to listen to us???
It’s getting even worse.
Not only we are not worth been listened to but actually we are even less worthy than transwomen. Great ......

Trans women, unless they pass completely or are slim and well coiffed (something used to oppress women), are also seen by society in general as somehow 'wrong' in a variety of ways so will equally be no more likely to reach positions of power.

As we can see from the amount of biological males identified as women in positions of power and influence you are talking nonsense.

Why do you think the biological females identified as men are ignored by the world in general? Have a little think about it.

Wikipedia describes heteronormativity as the belief that people fall into distinct and complementary genders (male and female) with natural roles in life. In what way does transgender ideology and those three individuals specifically subvert gender beliefs?

I think it does the opposite, by turning non conformity with the sex roles of your natal sex into conformity with the opposite set of sex roles. This is particularly the case when gay men presenting in feminine ways identify into straight feminine women or lesbian masculine presenting women turn into masculine presenting transmen. From gender challenger to gender reifier.

You mean we, as women, need to wait for people with Male privilege to defend ourselves because otherwise no one is going to listen to us???

No, that's not what the OP meant. She bizarrely thinks biological women have male privilege when they identify themselves as men.

@BrexitWife - violent criminals are violent criminals and are wrong, whatever their gender status. Some people are manipulative sociopaths, whatever their gender status. Some women are violent too but we aren't allowing that to derail the discussion on women's safety or prison reform or equal pay or legal rights or any of the other women's rights issues.

they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed
Please quote your sources for that data please.

Yep I fully agree Ereshkigal
I’ve seen very few transmen in position of power...

I think it does the opposite, by turning non conformity with the sex roles of your natal sex into conformity with the opposite set of sex roles.

Agree. Thats what "gender" is. Which is why many women here are GENDER critical.

A troll ? Homophobia?? Its the trans ideology thats homophobic.

Riley Dennis, for instance. Julia Serano. Vice Media. And anyone else who puts social & cultural pressure on lesbians to accept males as potential sexual partners.

Lesbians have always had shit for refusing penis but at least in the old days that was recognised as homophobic rape culture. Nowadays the rape culture movement gets to portray us as the oppressors for having a sexual orientation.

Talking about those sociopaths is NOT derailing the discussion. Because these are the people who are putting women at risk and we making it even easier for them to do so.
How is that OK????

Or is that we don’t need to have any ompassion for women victims of DV that wouldn’t be able to find safety in women house anymore. Because some those sociopaths could come in?
Transpeople are certainly at risk of MH issues and suicide. Women victims of DV are at risk of deaths too.
Shouodnt we protect BOTH groups?

And anyone else who puts social & cultural pressure on lesbians to accept males as potential sexual partners.

YY. Saying that people should not be homoSEXual is clearly homophobic.

AIBU to be saddened by the amount of women who pander to male feelings and throw other women under the bus to do so?

Some women are violent too but we aren't allowing that to derail the discussion on women's safety or prison reform or equal pay or legal rights or any of the other women's rights issues.

It's not just about safety. It's about privacy and dignity and women's feelings and rights mattering. You don't think my consent matters. They are male, and I don't want to share female spaces with them however lovely they are. Please respect that.

I think it does the opposite, by turning non conformity with the sex roles of your natal sex into conformity with the opposite set of sex roles.
The issue being that if you conflate sex and gender, and you have people desperate to fit in the stereotypes (by adhering the stereotype of their chosen gender), you end up actually reinforcing those stereotypes...

See the fact that transwomen are always very well groomed, high heels, make up and are vocal about how important it is to look after yourself etc etc... I have yet to see on TV a transwoman wearing jeans, no make up, short hair etc... Nope instead we have someone knitting on tv during an interview.

Erishkgal

No, that's not what the OP meant. She bizarrely thinks biological women have male privilege when they identify themselves as men.

Yes, she thinks they have male privilege but she acknowledges they have “the experiences of women and girls”.

Zero sense to be found anywhere...

Yes, she thinks they have male privilege but she acknowledges they have “the experiences of women and girls”.

And I illustrated why her extrapolation from that it would mean more people with the experience of women and girls in power was silly.

'Munroe Bergdof, Lily Madigan and Paris Lees are subverting heteronormativity- the same heteronormativity that enables male violence against women and keeps our wages low.'

This would be more convincing if Paris Lees hadn't actually spoken in FAVOUR of male harassment of women, saying they love being catcalled.
Paris ain't subverting heteronormativity. They are an enthusiastic defender of it.

YANBU some of the posts on here are full of hate.