To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

Op you can say I’m transphobic and homophobic as often as you like because I know I’m not and you’re opinion of me doesn’t matter.

I don't understand how grown adults can be so unaware of other women's lives that they think they can abolish women only spaces with no adverse effects.

Oh Lyndsey, I can't help myself; I jump in with both feet if I ever find myself with a spare few minutes! But then I am a bit odd, and I so often wonder why I bother.

Might also just start commenting support... but I can't bear to be labelled a "plopper" - it's such an unattractive word

All this time and money spent on trying to access women’s spaces to which women are saying “no, we don’t want you here”.

No is a complete sentence. No is not the start of a negotiation. If you can’t respect a woman’s boundaries and her right to say no then you are a dangerous individual and have no place in our sex segregated spaces.

Why are they trying to push into women’s spaces instead of using their time and money campaigning for safe spaces for transpeople ?

Sloth "Trans men, unless they pass completely, are seen by society in general as women so will be no more likely to reach positions of power."

I don't think that holds up to scrutiny. Simply changing the title of a gender neutral name from female to male results in statistically significant difference in outcomes from, for example, CVs, job applications, letters to MPs, or just emailing colleagues as part of your daily work.

There's also a fair bit of writing in this topic from transmen impact of male privilege on their lived experience from quite early in their transitions.

It's also borne out by historical examples of women presenting as male entering political or social positions of power.

spanna "heteronormativity is reinforcing transwomen's gender expression"

Yy to this. And the reverse is true for transmen.

In order to be read as their chosen gender more reliably a trans person is compelled to present a stereotypical gender.

Misgendering is a big deal for most trans people, so they do what they can to be read as their preferred gender, and that means meeting societal expectations as thoroughly as possible in terms of how they look.

There's a very short window of time in which another person makes a choice about what gender the person they are addressing belongs to. Wearing stereotypical clothing helps tip the balance substantially in that window and reduces likelihood of misgendering and the consequent hurt.

It took me a while to understand that when first learning more about trans issues. Once I'd figured that out I felt a lot less conflicted about the gender stereotypes involved.

SuperDandy that’s very well explained, about why some trans people tend to present in a very stereotypical way in accordance with their gender.

Rat what’s a plopper?

The beauty is that you can just comment and not engage. Try it with me! I just did on the thread about women’s only spaces/controversy on first page of AIBH. Let’s be a voice for anti transphobia. No getting drawn into debating with people who are openly transphobic necessary.

Rat what’s a plopper?

Someone who "plops" onto a thread, usually to shake their head sadly at the air of prejudice they're perceiving, then doesn't hang around -for the Spanish inquisition to "defend" that perception.

No is a complete sentence. No is not the start of a negotiation. If you can’t respect a woman’s boundaries and her right to say no then you are a dangerous individual and have no place in our sex segregated spaces.

This.

Rat what’s a plopper?

The beauty is that you can just comment and not engage.

@LyndseyKola

What’s the point of commenting without engaging?

Why not have a discussion and think about other people’s point of view?

For example on the other thread you have just advised people that you are going to break the law (re segregated spaces) go and have a read and a think.

What’s wrong with third spaces ?

rat "Just to jump in with you Lyndsey, I think there are more people who are more accepting of gender fluidity and the legitimacy of transgenderism on here than would ever get stuck in with the threads."

This is true. Posters are understandably wary of going against the GC tide, especially on the feminist boards, because of the way posters with different views are treated in there. I get DMs from other posters saying exactly that, and I don't blame them one bit for keeping their heads down.

Usually when this comes up the GC regulars deny that there is any hostility towards dissenting voices. It seems extraordinary to sustain that denial when advanced search means anyone can look at, say, my or rat's posting history on the feminist boards and take a look at the content of the responses we get.

the word cis is so well known now even though it’s controversial).

LOL, no it isn't. Go and ask the average man or woman what a "cis woman" is.

Why not have a discussion and think about other people’s point of view?

You mean get beaten round the head by the points of view of others who frequently aren't putting in half the effort you are to understand what's being said because they're so bloody sure they're right?

Yeah, there's literally no point most of the time.

I get DMs from other posters saying exactly that, and I don't blame them one bit for keeping their heads down.

Me too. Frequently.

Who has more right to use a women's bathroom, a tran person or a Muslim woman who needs to adjust her hijab?
Or a Sikh woman who can only use a women only bathroom?
Or a woman who's controlling partner wont let her use a mixed sex space?

@LyndseyKola *Maybe we should start a new movement of simply commenting on trans threads:

“If you’re reading this and you’re a trans woman, I accept you. You are a woman in my book, and you are welcome in the female spaces I frequent. I stand with you.”

Make it more obvious MN isn’t just full of transphobia. Show support for trans people lurking. Balance the scales a bit. No need to engage further, just state your support and walk away.

I think that’s gonna be my actions moving forwards. Anyone else?*

Yes, that sounds helpful

You mean get beaten round the head by the points of view of others who frequently aren't putting in half the effort you are to understand what's being said because they're so bloody sure they're right?

LOL. You're funny. You're not sure you're right, of course?

I stand with women who want or can only use women only spaces.

Me too. Frequently.

There's a whole thread of women who don't post on trans issues either delurking to say how much they appreciate the GC views expressed on MN.

You're not sure you're right, of course?

One should never be too sure. But at least I make the effort to understand why you lot think you are. I could make your arguments for you and I could make them convincingly, I just don't agree with them. I bet you couldn't make mine, even if you didn't agree with them.

Perhaps you should try to understand why your "opponents" might feel the way they do. It's something I try and do daily.

Transpeople's rights are not upheld to the detriment of others. This was the argument made against the Black Lives Matter movement. Some white people got all upset and suggested that 'All Lives Matter'. Of course they do, but the BLM movement was about flagging up unfair treatment against a minority. Saying BLM doesn't mean that other lives don't.

By the same token, sticking up for trans people doesn't mean not sticking up for others.

Like I said, challenging heteronormativity is good for all of us.

How come if you say something positive about a group of people it's not a generalisation, but if you say somthing negative it is?

Trans people come in all shapes and sizes and have lots of different reasons for being trans.

You can't say, they all wear lots of makeup and girly clothes because society pressures them to. Because that's not true. For some it will be yes. But for others the clothes, hair and makeup is a big part of the transition to them. Some want to be a woman because of the fashion.

Not all cis men are perverts or a dangour to women and children. My dh isn't. But he's not allowed in a womens prisons or refuges, or changing rooms or a girl guides dorm.

But at least I make the effort to understand why you lot think you are

Same, thanks. You still have no respect for other women's boundaries and concerns, whichever way you slice it Rat.

Shared sporting competitions a step to equality?
I have almost zero interest in sport but even I can see how stupid that idea is. Think just try thinking sometimes.
I can’t even reread the bit about why a woman (with a penis) would never want to rape another woman (with a vagina). My head hurts..

Transpeople's rights are not upheld to the detriment of others. This was the argument made against the Black Lives Matter movement. Some white people got all upset and suggested that 'All Lives Matter'. Of course they do, but the BLM movement was about flagging up unfair treatment against a minority. Saying BLM doesn't mean that other lives don't.

And that is basically what you are doing. Saying that women the oppressed sex class have to include and centre biological males. We can't have our own movement or spaces.