To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

My issue with the OP's first post was not in saying that children saying that they are the opposite sex were at high risk for self harm or suicide. This ties into other research about children who are very unhappy including those who have been abused, have significant mental health issues, are autistic and/or who are gay, lesbian or bisexual.

There are lots of unhappy children who self harm for a variety of reasons and we should campaign for better mental health support for all children. However the OP then went on to say that half of those children actually kill themselves. This is at odds with the Tavistock's report of one suicide in the last ten years in their client group. It is also hard to reconcile with the massive growth in referrals over the past few years. 25% mortality would mean a significant number of child deaths, but this has not been reported. Then we have reports that suicidality in people post transition is still high and advice from specialist organisations like the Samaritans being completely ignored so the 'dead son vs happy daughter' line is really very problematic.

I don’t doubt that the suicide rate is high. Gender dysphoria is comorbid with depression in the vast majority of cases.

It’s a desperately sad condition and sufferers deserve compassion,

How to demonstrate compassion whilst maintaining healthy boundaries is important. I prefer clear boundaries than being coerced into complying a charade which I believe has dangerous consequences for WAG,

I believe there is a balance to be struck and I’m not particularly interested in contesting the veracity of statistics: suicidal ideation is a terrible burden, but it’s not a trump card which means WAG should sacrifice their safe spaces

A troll ? Homophobia?? Its the trans ideology thats homophobic.

Genuine question: how have transwomen actually affected your actual life, so far? But given everything I posted and many others have also posted... that REALLY isn't a genuine question, istit?

How many different ways do women have to say that trans people are NOT the issue, it is the political maneuvering of Tsans Activists that is the issue?

A literally genuine question: When will you start to actually take in what you are reading?

No, it is a genuine question. It's central.

I'm reading and writing a literatire review as we speak.

Re suicides, everything I've read so far says ideation lifts when people are in a supportive school or workplace, able to transition in peace and not experiencing bullying.

I'm sorry it's hard to hear but the anger around this smacks of victim blaming: 'how dare you tell me my actions have actual impact on real people's emotional wellbeing!' Really weird response.

To b3 fair I’ve never seen anything transphobic, I have come across some stuff that is borderline homophobic but I just let it pass by. I’m completely open minded so I accept any and all sexuality’s but I also understand people don’t, not everyone believes in the same things and that’s fine. I don’t believe in god, or am not in the slightest religious and I don’t except people to question my choices. I am opposed to violence against people b3cause of thier sexuality. That’s not on, no one has the right to punish someone for thier sexulality.

8 women commit suicide every week as a result of domestic violence. What are you doing about domestic violence? Are you demanding men put a stop to it?
I think you only hear the voices of the people you want to hear.

Self ID is going to enable abusive men.

spannablue

From what I have read the main advocates for puberty blockers and breast binding in children are those supporting transition as early as possible with no thought to counselling or transitioning back.

These people are advocating permanent changes to a child's body with no thought to the long term effects.

As for sport being only by weight and height, male and female bodies are different. Muscle, bone growth and distribution on the body it wouldn't work.

*literature! Sp

Re. Transwomen taking the political and other spaces of not trans women:

The logic people rely on here is the idea that transwomen have not grown up as girls and experienced the same patriarchal oppression, so can't speak for not trans women.

By this logic, the same argument would (or should, if consistent) say that transmen have not grown up as boys. They are considered, by these logicians, deluded women in drag (patronising much?) But as legal men, they now have access to men's jobs. They'd be taking girls' and women's experience into politics etc in unprecedented ways. Which might actually be a good thing.

In any case, whilst many transwomen will have been raised 'as a boy' they certainly won't have enjoyed the privilege. It would (according to the research) have felt so wrong that they would have resorted to self-harm. They would have been bullied for being non-normative. So actually transwomen are in a unique position to critique heteronormativity and patriarchy.

Go and do something about male violence towards women before you try to remove women only spaces.

Fight for a third space for trans people, we can all support that.

'As for sport being only by weight and height, male and female bodies are different. Muscle, bone growth and distribution on the body it wouldn't work.'

A differentiated way of separating athletes works in the paralympics. The different conditions they work with often have an impact on muscle and bone growth. Also you have tall muscley women and short weedy men, so the advantages already exist even within groups separated into men and women

Male violence: I'm a survivor of this, and of violence from a female partner. Violence (physical or verbal) isn't ok, and I do work on this too.

Transpeople are at high risk of violence, and thr likelihood is exacerbated within a hostile culture.

It's strange that some people think that because I'm engaging with this discusdion about transpeople that I'm somehow negligent of the issues around gender based violence.

Sp. the; discussion.

Sorry about the typos- I'm writing on a phone on my commute

Still nothing in self id and the difference between sex an gender then spannablue??

I have no issue acknowledging the hurt and issues faced by trans people.
I wouod appreciate the fact that women’s hurt needs to be acknowledged too.
Because you know, we are all people worth of being protected. (And no, unlike what some trans people have said, we are NOT privilege because we are born women )

People can have opinions without being transphobic or homophobic. People are too sensitive.

Also you have tall muscley women and short weedy men, so the advantages already exist even within groups separated into men and women

The fastest man is always faster than the fastest woman. The strongest man is always stronger than the strongest woman.

The fastest woman may be faster than 99.9% of men, but she will ALWAYS be outrun by the fastest man.

No male-bodied/born person should be competing with female-bodied/born people. Perhaps there should simply be a third space for transgender athletes, indeed a third space for trans people. I don't want to 'other' anyone but I cannot see any other solution that respects who people are without compromising anyone's safety or the integrity of sporting events and statistics.

Most people on MN have no issues with transmen and trans women. They have always existed, they have the same rights as anyone else and we've probably already shared changing rooms etc with them.

The problem is that self ID opens up a huge channel of potential abuse by people who are NOT trans, but can simply say they are on any given day and suddenly have access to spaces and services where they are not supposed to be.

Don't you people get it? It's not trans women we're worried about. It's men who say they are trans women.

In any case, whilst many transwomen will have been raised 'as a boy' they certainly won't have enjoyed the privilege. It would (according to the research) have felt so wrong that they would have resorted to self-harm. They would have been bullied for being non-normative. So actually transwomen are in a unique position to critique heteronormativity and patriarchy.

Right. But what has that got to do with taking spaces that were designed to get women better represented?

This is what I don't understand. For example Lily Madigan is trans, but is a women's officer. What's wrong with being a trans officer? Lily wants to be the first trans MP but also states they are an actual woman, therefore equipped to represent women's issues. Well which is it?

Munroe Bergdorf was chosen to represent women in film, but only because they are trans. If Munroe was a woman then no way would they have got near that BFI thing. They wouldn't even be famous. Same for Paris Lees - would they have ever got near the cover of Vogue if they were just a regular boring woman? No way.

I am all for representation of transgender people, but not at the expense of women.

If transwomen are 'actual' women, then the 'trans' bit becomes irrelevant doesn't it? Or if not, then what is it that makes trans women different to women? And are we supposed to just conveniently ignore that bit when it suits them? It feels a bit like having cake and eating it.

Women too are at high risk of violence. More so now that SOME men can enter female spaces because they wear a dress.
And yes SOME men use the trans movement as a way to get what they want. Because they are the type of people who will do anything to get their kicks.

Because we consider that self id is good enough, women are open to more Male violence by opening women spaces to them.
Therebis a reason why we created women spaces. And that’s because women need to be protected from SOME men. Those men will use self id to their advantage.

Btw I dint see that as different from that situation.
There is a man in Canada I think who self identify as a little girl (a 6yo) I believe. He is, apparently, one fo the ‘experts’ on the trans subject.
Would you be happy to open children space to that fully grown man wo any CRB check etc... just because they self id as a child?
Esp when that man actually still acts as a man. He goes to mettings, gives his POV and expects to be listened to etc etc. The only thing that is a ‘child’ About him are his (oversized)children clothes.

The same happens with SOME men. They only wear women clothes when it suits them.

Re. Self ID and women's safety:

We don't currently check people's genitals before allowing them into changing rooms and toilets.

There's never been anything to stop a violent male criminal from putting on a wig and sneaking into a women's toilet to lie in wait. Self ID isn't needed here. I haven't seen evidence that this is the usual strategy of violent sexual offenders, so self ID won't affect this.

We don't currently check people's genitals before allowing them into changing rooms and toilets.

We've had a sort of honour system in the past, and it seems to have worked.

But if the law on self ID is changed, then it will be entirely LEGAL for the manliest of manly men to decide one day that he is a woman, not even have to bother with the wig and dress, and simply enter the women's spaces. Changing rooms are only one part of it. There are also forums and groups dedicated to women's issues that could, quite legally, be overtaken by men who aren't even in drag but simply declaring that today they are women and should be treated as such.

As for violent criminals, well, when they start declaring that they're women too, where do you think they'll be sent for incarceration? And what's likely to happen then?

By this logic, the same argument would (or should, if consistent) say that transmen have not grown up as boys. They are considered, by these logicians, deluded women in drag (patronising much?) But as legal men, they now have access to men's jobs. They'd be taking girls' and women's experience into politics etc in unprecedented ways. Which might actually be a good thing.

Sorry OP haven’t RTFT and I’m
actually fairly ambivalent about a lot of these discussions, but the bit above jumped out at me as totally illogical. Trans men being “legally men” is neither here nor there - there are no legal barriers to women getting “men’s jobs”. The barriers are social. Trans men, unless they pass completely, are seen by society in general as women so will be no more likely to reach positions of power. You yourself prove that you see them as women when you say they take “girls’ and women’s experiences with them”. So then trans women also take boys’ and men’s experience with them, yes?

Also, whether or not trans women “enjoyed” the privilege of being raised as boys: irrelevant. We don’t measure privilege by how much people enjoy their lives. I think privilege is not a very helpful word and discussions centred on it get very convoluted very fast, but surely we can all agree “enjoyment” is nothing to do with it?

As i said, i don’t have a dog in this fight and I’m on the fence about most of it. But there’s a glaring lack of logic in so many of the discussions around it that it’s painful to me.

In a nutshell: this is not about trans women. This is about removing protections that open women up to abuse from MEN. Not trans women, but MEN, who could decide one day that they are women, it's legally binding on no more than that, and women have to live with the consequences.

The problem is predatory MEN, not trans women.

It's unhelpful to talk about this Canadian person as if they represent the core people affected by this discussion, because they don't.

Munroe Bergdof, Lily Madigan and Paris Lees are subverting heteronormativity- the same heteronormativity that enables male violence against women and keeps our wages low.

Also see my earlier post on transwomen politicians.

Moon thé reason why it’s an issue is
1- because of the privilege they’ve always experienced as a boy an teenage boy, they will have no idea what a woman/girl will have been conditioned to. They have no idea what it actually means to be a woman/girl
2- they still retain their make privilege for a long time. Which means, for example, that they still expect special treatment. Something women never ever have in their life. See the reaction of said Lily Maddigan horrified that some people might actually treat as lesser than. Something women have to put up with all the time (see the numerous threads in here here the woman is expected to be the skivvy in the house for example).

Have a look at this reddit thread on transwoman missing their Male privilege.
(And then of course, some people who were born Male, never accept it too)