To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

"No one is hostile to trans people but you keep trotting out that crap to stop legitimate concerns from women."

That would be the denial then.

I also have concerns about self id and am absolutely not trying to stop legitimate concerns.

I do however have a problem with posters disparaging trans people needlessly and will not "bore off" and stop calling it out when I see it.

perhaps there are some who are so entrenched that they truly cannot see their own or others' prejudice.

On the contrary, it's the transactivists that take this position. Feminists certainly do understand their position. And provide solutions where their own safety and rights aren't erroded. But transactivists don't want this. They just want it all, regardless on how women feel about it. Because if they really were 'sisters' they would actually care about women's safety and rights. But they don't give a flying fuck about anything apart from asserting their right to have what biological women have.

And we won't stop calling out misogyny as we see it, so there we are.

Maybe that's just how it seems when women don't immediately roll over and say 'sure, whatever you say'.

Yep. This.

Having spent quite a bit of time in the feminist threads, I can’t see any hatred towards trans people.

People have issue with the self indentification and MEN using the trans pretext to invade women spaces.
People have issues with the cases I’ve listed.

And what I notice is that span is nicely avoiding discussing any those issues. Self Id and the difference between gender and sex being the two very big issues.
Because of course, those are difficult question.
How can someone raised as a man with all the men privilege (yes even as a boy) ever have an idea of what it is to live as a woman?
How can someone who is trans and says they see themselves as the opposite gender still want want the things associated with their sex?
Why is it that when transwomen are treated like women and are dismissed, it’s transphobic and not just being a woman?
Etc etc

"Maybe that's just how it seems when women don't immediately roll over and say 'sure, whatever you say'."

No. It's how it seems when regular GC posters write, for example, that trans people should not be parents or that permitting your child to present as the opposite gender is child abuse, and then other posters deny the existence of hostility or prejudice towards trans people.

@spannablue

Thanks for coming back.

As far as I can tell, the Stonewall suicide stat comes originally from the National Youth Chances survey. I was only able to find the public-facing doc for this (not an academic paper) and it is v sketchy on detail re sampling methods, so no idea how biased the sample might be. Also, as far as I can see, no statistical tests to identify whether differences between the LBGTQ and hetero/non-trans groups are significant. Though of course that point may be moot if the sample were biased. Which, given that 90% of respondents were LGBTQ, seems likely.

Plus, of course, no multifactoral analysis to identify interactions between characteristics and no real grounds, as far as I can see, for assuming a causal relationship.

If I'm looking at the wrong report please provide a link to the correct one. I'm sure I'll be able to access it through my university library.

Thank you @SuperDandy.

Interesting re sporting events. Caster Semenya has to lower her testosterone levels before competing as a woman, but men don't get challenged for having an advantageously high T level.

How about classifying sportspeople according to speed, height jumped or weight lifted? Or to height and weight (like in boxing)?

Far too many men including trans women/men want to shout real women down in life and just because here on MN we have for once freedom of speech as women annoys some people. Well they will just have to put up with it.

Many of us have huge sympathy for trans people and we know the mental illnesses many of them have and we are sorry for them but we do not all agree self ID is the way to go. that does not make us transphobic. I would like English law retained as it now is.

There are vast areas of MN where feminism and issues about trans are not discussed and people can join all those other topics if they don't want to read what is written about trans issues but we will not be silenced. We have freedom of speech respectfully to discuss issues.

YANBU.

It’s half horrifying, but to be fair at this point it’s half incredibly dull. So many threads about it every day all saying the exact same rubbish. MN certainly deserves its reputation on this issue.

No. It's how it seems when regular GC posters write, for example, that trans people should not be parents or that permitting your child to present as the opposite gender is child abuse, and then other posters deny the existence of hostility or prejudice towards trans people.

I don't care what groups of people are parents. Don't give a fuck.

Happy for children to present as the opposite gender, (I did myself) or whatever they want, as long as they are not pushed down the puberty blocker route. Because that is child abuse imo.

The only problem I have with some trans people is the need to have everything that biological women have got, sport, safe spaces, shortlists, changing rooms and so on. And tell women what their identity will now be. All those things are a fucking big problem. To which they can fuck off.

@spannablue I'm horrified by it. I totally understand the issue of sharing spaces and I know the solution is not obvious - but the way trans are being addressed here is appalling. Both groups (women and trans women) are oppressed and suffer ffs. Of course there are c*nts in every group! But seeing them as having an "agenda" and being part of the male aggression issue is just wrong. As a feminist I'm just very sad to see this becoming a confrontation when we should we helping each other.

So spannablue
What is your POV on self indentification??
What is your POV on making the difference between sex and gender? Aka is a woman a woman because she has XX chromosomes (aka her sex) or is she a woman because of her gender? Can we agree that sex and gender are different?

Come on. You want to show thatall is rosy with tha trans situation atm and that women in MN saying it’s not is just being transphobic.
So can you explain what’s your position on self Id and sex vs gender?

But seeing them as having an "agenda" and being part of the male aggression issue is just wrong.
I think the anger at that situation should be directed towards the hard core trans activists who DO have an agenda. The ones that aren’t just trying to do the best with what they have (so MH issue, fitting in, finding their own balance and place in the world) but the ones that want to impose things on women wo their consent.
The c**nts you are mentioning.

If those people didn’t have an agenda and weren’t pushing for laws that are detrimental to women, maybe women wouldnt have to push back.

I think your anger, whilst valid, isn’t directed aptowards the right people.

How bizarre to call yourself a feminist and yet refer to extremely unpleasant people as ‘cunts’

I've come across some homophobic posts of late. Disappointing really as a gay person.

Its OK op, we do understand that you couldnt even admit to centring women in academia even if you wanted to

Most changing areas now have family spaces which are mixed gender and which feature large family changing spaces. If that's not available you can squish into a small cubicle with your kid, like I do (I don't like changing in front of anyone).

But I don’t want to squish into a small cubicle (and with 3 DC impossible) and why should I have to? I’m happy to chance infront of other women. I’m uncomfortable to change infront of anyone with a penis.

Non-binary- I think there is a bit of confusion here. Nonbinary people are those who do not identify as either male or female. but what does this even mean? If I’m a woman who has long hair, wears make up, loves football and works as a mechanic am I non-binary?
If I’m a man with long hair, wears make up, loves football and works as a mechanic am I non-binary?

I genuinely don’t understand. Why do we have to ‘identify’? Can’t everyone just dress how they want, do whatever job/hobbies they enjoy and be supported not to be abused/mistreated in the workplace, etc for looking a certain way/wearing certain clothes.

YANBU. It's relentless.

I've come across some homophobic posts of late. Disappointing really as a gay person.
I'm sorry to hear that. Have you reported them? Point me to them and I'll report them too.

How about classifying sportspeople according to speed, height jumped or weight lifted? Or to height and weight (like in boxing)?
If you put the fastest women into a category with the fastest trans women, the women could never ever win.
Sportspeople are already categorised according to speed, etc, that’s why women and men compete separately.

If you put in height categories, the tall women would likely compete with the trans women and again would never, ever win.

'Most changing areas now have family spaces which are mixed gender and which feature large family changing spaces. If that's not available you can squish into a small cubicle with your kid, like I do (I don't like changing in front of anyone).'

That's bollocks op, sorry.
Maybe where you live (and indeed the swanky new pool near my parents has) but where I live the local pool is single sex and mainly communal with only 4 cubicles, and as I have said on another thread, the second nearest pool is single sex cubicles with curtains too narrow for the gaps.

williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

In brief,
responses were obtained from 6,456 self-identified
transgender and gender non-conforming adults aged 18
and over.

Suicide attempts among trans men
(46%) and trans women (42%)

last time I posted this I was called a liar and people told me they wouldn't believe the reports. That's transphobia when you decide you know better than official studies. I'm not getting involved more than posting this as I've been treated absolutely vilely for supporting trans people.

Sadly trends always repeat, our great grandparents didn't tolerate homosexuals. our great great great grandparents didn't tolerate POC and apparently this generation isn't willing to tolerate trans people.

Read the limitations section in that same report, LadyDeadpool. Quite interesting.

I've come across some homophobic posts of late. Disappointing really as a gay person

It must be incredibly distressing, there are homophobic fuckwits everywhere, as there are a lot of users on here it wouldn't surprise me that there would be fuckwits on here as well as on other social media, RL, TV etc