To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

OP thank you for putting your head above the parapet with this, it’s making me hate mumsnet at the moment, it just makes me so sad.

The suicide statistic: it is in the Stonewall research, and Transgender Trend's so-called 'research' is of highly questionable methodological quality, in comparison. Other pieces of research put the rate at between 15 and 26%. Anyone who has access to a university library can find this out. But really, does it matter? Even 1% is too high. When we quibble over this it really feels inhumanly lacking in empathy.

I think that the problem that people have with the suicide thing is that they feel it has been manipulated into 'if you don't do as I say I will kill myself' or 'if you don't agree with what I say, you are saying you think I should kill myself'.

The trans agenda has heavily used suicide statistics as a way of shutting down debate, people like Paris Lees do it all the time on the telly. But as far as I understand, the advice from organisations such as the Samaritans suggest that suicide is such a complex and difficult issue, that 'reasons' for someone killing themselves, aren't actually something that should be up for public discussion because it is likely to be a myriad of things which will lead someone to taking their own life. Suicide is an incredibly complex issue and is not something to be used as a weapon to coerce someone into seeing your view.

Which is why the 'trans kids will kill themselves if you don't do as we say' rhetoric is quite disturbing.

And as you say, that quite shocking statistic that you quoted so authoratively in the OP, comes from a Stonewall survey, which we can probably say isn't going to be the most impartial of sources.

Statistics, especially when it comes to suicide are sensitive and subject to scrutiny and not to be thrown around to 'win' a debate.

Obviously I don't want teenagers who think they may be trans to kill themselves.

Non-binary- I think there is a bit of confusion here. Nonbinary people are those who do not identify as either male or female.

Ie. People who don't fit into stereotypically male or female roles, ie loads of people. But apparently that makes you 'queer' now.

Everyone is male or female. Occasionally some people are intersex. But that doesn't mean that sex isn't binary any more than the fact that some people are born with one leg means humans are not a bi pedal species.

@spannablue

How do you feel about/Justify people with no medical experience encouraging child to take puberty blockers when they have have no form of counselling or understanding of the long term consequences of their actions?

How does one not 'identify' as either male or female? I can understand feeling 'trapped' in the wrong body and wishing to transition to the other sex, and I can understand being intersex (although the definitions I read seem to include, for example, women with large clitorises or men with small penises - I don't see how this is intersex, just normal variation in body parts. There's no word that I know for unusually large noses or small ears).

But how does one not 'identify' as either male or female? Why can you simply not say that gender stereotypes are bollocks?

But the issue is NOT about trans gender people as such.
It’s about self identification.

So when a person rapes a woman with a penis, how can they
1- claim to be a woman? I would assume a transowman, who hasn’t had bottom surgery, would not be looking for partners to have sex with, with their penis? Because surely there is nothing more manly than an erect penis? (Same with transmen btw. There is a an incongruence in wanting to be a man but wanting to be organant and carry a baby, a very womanly thing to do)
2- how can we, because they have self indentified as a woman, then send them to a women prison? I mean, it clearly that would be putting those women at risk of rape??

Other issues that are along the same lines

• men are known to be more aggressive than women and commit more crimes linked to aggression. If transowmen are recorded as a woman, what will it do to this statistics? Will it show an increase in the level of aggression from women, leading to the idea that actually women are just as aggressive as men? Even though they’re not if you actually record thing by sex rather than gender.
• people who have grown up as men, developed muscles as men (due to the high level of testosterone) can then self identify as women later on and complete as women. How in earth will women ever able to compete against them? THEY won’t have had the testosterone to grow all those muscles and of course will get lower times (eg in running but also in team games such as volleyball)
• the idea that men can breastfeed, give birth etc... are they not part of what a FEMALE/WOMAN can do?? How can we get to the idea that anyone, men or women can give birth for example? That’s what is destroying women.

I think it’s time that we start separating GENDER and SEX.
And stop letting people just self identify in a daily basis (see the people who identify as a man one day and a woman the next).

Btw, your fear that being a woman is being more and more stereotypes and you can’t possibly not wear make up etc... is actually also driven by the trans agenda. Because most of the trans people actually buy heavily into the stereotype to be able to ‘fit in’. Just look at photos. Always heavily make up, high heels, jewellery etc etc But not the woman who wears no make up, wear their short and is actually looking a bit more ‘masculine’

spanna As another, now retired academic, can I point out that very many of the posters who have responded are also academic? Many of them like myself, have varying numbers and levels of degrees in varying aspects of physiology, biology, sociology etc.

The reason I say this is to give you a heads up that you won't win any argument, or any point within that argument, here by paying Educational Top Trumps.

What you will get is a lot of academics who will point out to you that you are relying on very biased sources of information and are leaping to ill informed conclusions about what it is many of the GC feminists, lesbians and trans men and women who post here are shouting about.

If you read all the responses you have had you might gain some clarity on the diverse opinions here, the lack of transphobia and the absolute horror of trans activist bilge!

You see, as has been said many times before, we aren't arguing about the existence, rights or needs of trans people. We are trying to understand how loud, aggressive AGP men got to be so all powerful! And once that is understood we fully intend to fight back against he actions being pushed in the name o so many who are trying to shout "No!"

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I don’t think it’s anything against the people I think people are fed up of certain pressure groups demanding people think and act certain ways. That is what most of the back lash is against. I have no issue with who people sleep with who they fall in love with but I resent being to,d to wear a rainbow lanyard, put a rainbow flag on my desk support pride as a straight alli. Not my monkey not m6 circus. Can you imagine if a Christian went round trying to force people to wear a crucifix and put a cross on their desk and go to a carol service as and atheist alli.

Re @BoneyBackJefferson 'How do you feel about/Justify people with no medical experience encouraging child to take puberty blockers when they have have no form of counselling or understanding of the long term consequences of their actions?'
I haven't seen that happening. If anything the hoops families have to jump through to get any service are prohibitive

@Mummyschnauzer charming. 'First they came for the Jews....' etc

@CuriousaboutSamphire not Top Trumps- just offering that info for context.

Genuine question: how have transwomen actually affected your actual life, so far?

@spannablue really? Because all I've seen is people and schools falling over themselves to be "inclusive" and punish pupils for not understanding that Jimmy is now Jenny.
That toddlers are referred to as trans.
That a kid can't safely pick clothing,toys and activities deemed for the opposite sex without someone jumping at the chance to "trans" them.

@RebelRogue I haven't seen this either but it sounds like bad/misguided practice if it really does happen

The transphobic “feminists” seem to have decided that mumsnet is the perfect place to spread their message of hatred. I’m disappointed it still gets allowed. Every bloody day there’s something posted that’s thinly veiled hate speak.

to you @spannablue

And, if you don't mind, a massive hug.

Thank you Rat. Much appreciated

Spannablue I'll stand with you.

Thank you for posting, and to the others on this thread who see it too.

The hostility and prejudice towards trans people is so entrenched on the feminist boards that it has become normalised. The staunch denial of any transphobic elements is extraordinary - perhaps there are some who are so entrenched that they truly cannot see their own or others' prejudice.

Mnhq do their best to keep it in check with guidelines specific to the debate and deletions, and in response they are frequently and openly disparaged and insulted by posters.

Challenges to the prevailing views are invariably met with personal insult, accusation of trolling (see multiple references to sock puppetry and ploppers for example on this thread) or collective ignoring.

I salute mnhq for their patience and persistence in trying to maintain a space for civil debate but in my view the attempt has failed, and that's a great shame.

The commenter saying the suicide rates are falsified shows the complete lack of respect and compassion people have for other human beings.

So you don't think this claim should be evidenced?

the transphobic feminists seem to have decided that mumsnet is the ideal place to spread their message of hate

Or mumsnet is a fantastic site full of articulate fiesty women not cis crap women who object to being airbrushed out as a gender!

Objects to self ID on the grounds of safety for women and girls, object to men identifying as women and taking over all female sporting events, object to men being able to access women’s prisons, refuges and changing areas and being generally shouty mysogynistic arseholes.

The hate seems to me to be one sided. And yes as women we have to defend ourselves from it on mumsnet and in RL.

No one is hostile to trans people but you keep trotting out that crap to stop legitimate concerns from women.

Bore off

Which is why the 'trans kids will kill themselves if you don't do as we say' rhetoric is quite disturbing.

It's controlling and abusive. Male pattern. Very recognisable to women who have suffered coercive control DV.

The hostility and prejudice towards trans people is so entrenched on the feminist boards that it has become normalised. The staunch denial of any transphobic elements is extraordinary - perhaps there are some who are so entrenched that they truly cannot see their own or others' prejudice.

Maybe that's just how it seems when women don't immediately roll over and say 'sure, whatever you say'.

to buzz

OP and others - "thinly veiled hate speech" - hyperbole much?

Maybe that's just how it seems when women don't immediately roll over and say 'sure, whatever you say'.

Indeed. No is a complete sentence.