To be saddened by the transphobia and homophobia on Mumsnet?

[spannablue]

I used to come on here for a good laugh. But now there's just so much casual, vitriolic, uninformed rubbish om here!

Do people really think that trans women are secretly trying it on to take over women's space? Have you not seen what they have to go through (for some, horrific surgery; for others, lashings of abuse; job losses; loss of contact with family; street attacks)? Why would anyone choose that?

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed.

We're talking about a tiny minority of people who are trans. But what I'm seeing on Mumsnet amounts to collective bullying.

When did it become ok to be so judgmental? Have you ever actually met a trans person and listened to them with an open mind?

There are people of all kinds on social media - trans, not trans, gay, straight, bi, lollipop ladies, lawyers, teachers, academics and bus drivers. Some talk a load of crap. And others engage in intelligent, informed, openminded debate. Please consider trying out your ideas thoughtfully with these people before perpetuating the sort of hateful kneejerk nonsense which can have terrible consequences.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

What Starlive22 said. It does get lost in translation. Not even translation really, it just gets drowned out by the anger.

I don't think we'll ever know how opinions on mumsnet are divided, but I suspect the vast majority don't agree with the transphobia but aren't obsessed enough to spend their whole time on line debating it.

Really? I suspect that the majority of women on this site do not support self id allowing males access to every female area, allowing rapists to be sent to female prisons. I doubt they would support a TW winning the Olympic 100m women’s final, or winning Wimbledon Ladies Final, or as a women’s football or rugby team - hsving to play against a TW team - seems they have a TW road cycling team in the US competing against women.

It’s all just our opinions though a recent Pink News poll showed only 18% supported self id - that’s a lot of bigoty terfy transphobes out there.

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed? All the literature/research on this shows that it's transphobia, stigma and bigotry that causes this, rather than some innate pathology. When a trans kid is supported to be who they want to be, those suicidal feelings tend to go away. If you've ever had or known a child with depression, anxiety, or who self harms, you'll know the fear and terror that they might succeed

Did you know that statistic is false. Frankly if you are an academic researcher I'm very surprised (and a little shocked) you are brandishing this stat without acknowledging it's source and looking more closely into it. Suicidal ideation is more likely caused by the co-morbidity of mental health issues common to those identifying as trans. As I say further reading may be in order.

www.transgendertrend.com/a-scientist-reviews-transgender-suicide-stats/

www.transgendertrend.com/stonewall-school-report-what-does-suicide-rate-mean/

As an academic I'm sure you are aware that production of stats can be dependant on who is producing the statistic and not all studies are reliable such as the ones producing this statistic.

For the record, I'm an academic researcher in the field of applied sociology. I'm not trans. I'm a lesbian with four kids aged 3 to 25, one of whom is nonbinary.

Interesting.

For the record I'm not transphobic - I have no fear or aversion but I am pro women and I believe words and how we use them are important and I don't like seeing them subverted. This thread shows a lack of understanding of the issue and indeed, a lack of reading around it (again, since you are an academic I'm a little surprised to see this!)

Non binary is even more of a crock of shit than the whole cis rubbish.

What makes me sad is the idiots who perpetuate the fucking nonsense that you must wear pink dresses or blue trousers to fit a gender and if you like neither you must declare yourself non-binary, like the special flower you are

Actually I’m pretty pro non-binary.

Non-binary is someone with gender dysphoria who hasn’t bought the gender stereotypes crap. They feel the need to reject their sexed body but don’t appropriate womanhood.

I’m ok with that.

It’s not ok to appropriate womanhood, to suppress acknowledgement of the reality that we live in a man’s world and to strive to level the playing field for women, it’s not ok to oppress women by calling them names when they disagree.

It just isn't going to be the exact same rights as biological women and that's ok too, nobody is trying to make life harder for people going through what must be a very difficult time in their life ... but we need to make sure we all work to safeguard girls and women and give trans folk rights that protect them too.

I get how it comes across as transphobic and I can only speak for myself but I think some of it is more misunderstanding than anything.

I think it gets deliberately misunderstood - misconstrued because it fits with an agenda.

I think use of the word 'hysterical' is pretty damn misogynistic, to be honest.

It is based on the Greek word hystera, meaning uterus - and excessive emotion in women was blamed on the 'wandering uterus' - and was used as a condemnatory term - basically women couldn't control themselves properly. It has never been a positive term for emotions, and is, frankly, insulting.

When it is used in an attempt to silence debate amongst women, it is, frankly unacceptable, imo.

Non-binary is someone with gender dysphoria who hasn’t bought the gender stereotypes crap. They feel the need to reject their sexed body but don’t appropriate womanhood.

If you're not trans and are just 'non binary', can you not just wear what you like, do the hobbies you like, study the subjects and take the job you like, without gendering it all?

Seems very counter productive to me. If a person has short hair, wears trousers and works in mechanical engineering says that it's because they're 'non binary', it sounds much to me as if they're indirectly perpetuating a gender stereotype whereby these things are considered 'masculine'.

Well I’m probably non binary or gender fluid or agender but I don’t have a medical diagnosis.

I respect that people with gender dysphoria have a condition which they treat by rejecting their sexed body. I think in those circumstances they should be afforded rights - I’m not sure what those additional rights would be though.

All for rights as long as they don’t trample on other people’s rights.

There seems to be a lot of support for it on Mumsnet from what I've read so YABU

Hello OP I agree with you - but I think here you’re speaking to a brick wall

@AynRandTheObjectivist - I agree with you entirely about the perpetuating of gender stereotypes.

There seem to be two completely separate and restrictive boxes marked Man and Woman (or Boy and Girl), and certain things can ONLY go in certain boxes - skirts, pink, make up, caring professions, long hair, playing with dolls, doing yarn crafts or sewing - MUST go in the Girl/Woman box - whilst contact sports, trousers, short hair, no make up, boisterous, engineering/construction - MUST be Boy/Man box items.

Why, in the name of all that is holy, can't we just let people be individuals?

If a person knows that they can choose the clothes, colours, toys, profession etc that they like, without any negative connotations or labels being applied, surely the majority will be happy - or happier? I think a lot of the unhappiness that is leading people towards transitioning is due to knowing that, if they remain in their assigned/observed gender, they will be criticised or ridiculed for their choices - if they could make those choices without the criticism or ridicule, they would surely be happier, and might not feel the need to transition.

By perpetuating the rigid gender role boxes, the trans movement is actually profoundly regressive.

Non binary can only mean youre intersex. Otherwise your sex is definitely binary, and thats got nothing to do with how you feel about stereotypical gender presentation.
Not liking all the expectations of performative masculinity or femininity is NORMAL. It doesnt make you trans or special and it doesnt make you queer ffs

I don't understand 'non binary'. Why can't you be a woman who's a mechanical engineer (plenty are)? Or a man who's a nursery teacher? Why do you need a special label that denies any sex or gender while indirectly upholding the very gender stereotypes you say you don't meet?

I have a friend with short hair who works in a science field and is married to another woman. I don't think she's 'non binary'. I think she's a woman with short hair who works in a science field and is married to another woman.

Boss, that works both ways.

YANBU
I'm appalled by the snide, mean and downright spiteful comments made.

I avoid the feminist section now, despite considering myself a feminist.

The commenter saying the suicide rates are falsified shows the complete lack of respect and compassion people have for other human beings.

Those horrific attitudes come from a place of privilege. Where they have never had to watch someone go through the physical and emotional struggle of simply living their lives as they feel comfortable.

Shame on those people!

Did you know that if your kid comes out as trans, they are around 48% likely to attempt suicide, and around half of them succeed?

Have only just come across this thread, but this statistic is false isn't it? Isn't it quite irresponsible of Mumsnet to let it stand like that? I thought that there were certain rules around reporting of suicide and reasons for people committing suicide?

Pepper123123, producing bogus suicide claims isn't compassionate or respectful. It's manipulative and dishonest.

And defining yourself as a feminist when you can't define the word "woman" is quite a stretch.

I have not witnessed any homophobia. I am not anti genuine trans people. I am anti the group of people who use trans as a label to abuse women and for whom being trans is actually a fetish than a genuine being born in the wrong body.

OP here. Sorry about the delay in responding - I wrote the OP on my phone whilst getting the three year old to sleep, then fell asleep myself next to the three year old then suddenly it was 6.30am and I had to get up and come to work.

I'll try and address the themes which have come up through the comments here:

Thank you for anyone who has been supportive. Your voices help, because this is like stepping into a river of shit. I was aware this would be the case but did not feel I could be a voiceless bystander any longer.

I did not post to wind anyone up, but to try and understand what has happened here.

I am indeed an academic, and am slightly surprised by how many people suggest I'm not. I don't mind either way but I do wonder why some are so convinced I am not really an academic. I can assure you I am: I have a PhD, I teach undergraduates, I have two PhD students, I run a MA module, I conduct research, publish it, and go to conferences.

The suicide statistic: it is in the Stonewall research, and Transgender Trend's so-called 'research' is of highly questionable methodological quality, in comparison. Other pieces of research put the rate at between 15 and 26%. Anyone who has access to a university library can find this out. But really, does it matter? Even 1% is too high. When we quibble over this it really feels inhumanly lacking in empathy.

Re the offensive and peculiar 'ladydick' thing. People have asked me as a lesbian whether I think lesbians should be forced to have sex with people with what are called 'ladydicks'. I assume this means transwomen who have not had bottom surgery. Well- the answer is, I don't think anyone should be forced to have sex with anyone, whatever their genital arrangements. You fancy who you fancy. Anyone who uses emotional blackmail to get nonconsensual sex, trans or non trans, is abusive.

The idea that womanhood or 'women' are being erased is a curious one. I know lots of trans people and have read lots of gender theory and am an avid consumer of queer and heteronormative social and entertainment media and I don't feel my womanhood is being erased. Any specific examples would be helpful here. To be honest if anything my 14 year old's incessant watching of Love Island makes me feel that the way I express my womanhood is under threat. For example, I don't wear makeup - watching that dross makes me feel maybe I should sometimes. Heteronormative pressure is bad for all kinds of women. Masculine-presenting women (identified as female at birth) are hurt by transphobia too, because they experience the same abuse and mistrust.

About bringing your girl child into a swimming pool changing room and being faced with a transwoman: Most changing areas now have family spaces which are mixed gender and which feature large family changing spaces. If that's not available you can squish into a small cubicle with your kid, like I do (I don't like changing in front of anyone).

Non-binary- I think there is a bit of confusion here. Nonbinary people are those who do not identify as either male or female. It does not just refer to intersex people, but to others who identify as nonbinary. It does not refer to masculine-looking women or men who like knitting.

I have to go home now and cook tea, but I do appreciate any genuine questions and will try and check back later. Peace and love, people.

Non-binary is one of the most ridiculous terms I have ever heard. You are either a male or a female. That's it.

The world has gone mad

Masculine-presenting women (identified as female at birth)

What is one of those? Do you mean a woman? Just a woman?