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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

DF's have fallen out. Now demanding money for a hotel

228 replies

Roosevelt111 · 01/07/2018 22:57

False names used: Sorry this is going to be long...

I've been friends with a group of people for about 5 years. We all share the same interest. DF1 (I'll call him Dennis) used to normally drive if we went out for the day. Earlier this year Dennis fell seriously ill and now can no longer drive. DF2 (Aka Nick) has taken over driving if we go out anywhere. For many months Dennis and Nick had a problem with DF3 (Richard).

Richard has very few social skills and quite literally has no friends apart from us. He gets anxious and very upset if he's left out of anything we do as a group. For example Myself and Nick went to see Dennis when he was in hospital. Nick didn't invite Richard to come to the hospital with us because the hospital only let's two people in at a time. Richard also lives in the same town as the hospital whilst we both live significantly further away. Richard heard we'd been to see Dennis and he text Nick. He was furious. Saying we were nasty, horrible people for leaving him out and how we never took him anywhere and how he'd never be happy again until Nick took him out for the day. Nick has refused to speak to him since

Since then Dennis's health has improved and Nick has secretly (without Richard's knowledge) organised days out with just us three. I feel incredibly guilty for leaving Richard out and have met up with him a few times at a favourite local attraction. I've offered to help him. I've tried to encourage him to try new activities so he can make new friends and gain some confidence (he has very little) but he refuses these offers. He just whinges about Nick leaving him out and how he wants his friends back.

It's all come to a head this week. Next week a major (interest related) is taking place around 200 miles away. Nick is driving. Richard can't drive a car. Richard assumed he was invited in Nick's car. Only to find out (2 weeks ago) that Nick had already invited myself, Dennis and two more friends. So as a 5 seater - it's full.

He's managed to get a partway lift (train and then a lift) off someone else but the people he's getting a lift from will have to leave the event early to drop him at the station so he can get his train home. They're not happy about this and have suggested he gets a hotel room near the event and travel home the following day. Richard says Nick should pay for this hotel room because he should have taken him in the car rather than the other friends he invited. They've had a huge row and I feel stuck in the middle. I've tried to help Richard so many times but he won't listen. I personally don't think Nick should be paying for Richard's hotel given the way he behaved but maybe Nick wbu by not inviting him to start with? Sad how can I help Richard when he won't listen or try to do anything I encourage or suggest?

Thanks for reading if you got this far Cake

OP posts:
Zaphodsotherhead · 04/07/2018 09:09

Having a friend with an ASD son and having an ASD partner, can I just add that Richard, if he is HFA will probably be very distressed at his friends 'cutting him out' like this. He literally will not be capable of comprehending what has just gone on. It sounds as though he is grossly incapable of reading social situations.

So, although he does behave appallingly, and nobody owes him anything, please don't treat him in quite the same manner as you would treat a rude, overbearing, entitled NT person. He doesn't know (and can't grasp, however often you tell him) what he has done wrong and will expect life to continue as it did before, with everyone 'forgetting' his bad behaviour.

And yes, if he's an adult over about 30, it may well have gone undiagnosed through school, especially if he was able in most areas (apart from socially). His parents may well be in denial.

dinosaursandtea · 04/07/2018 09:21

But maybe this will help. Clearly he’s never had to face the consequences of his actions before and the OP has explained repeatedly what the problem is. Whatever condition he does or doesn’t have - and remember, he hasn’t been diagnosed! - he cannot act like this and no one should be expected to put up with it.

SevenStones · 04/07/2018 10:08

Nick sounds like an immense arse and it looks like he's been manipulating situations so that Richard gets left out. And now he's totally got his own way because he's now in charge of driving and makes sure Richard is not included.

What about your part? You go along with going to the hospital with Nick, and don't tell Richard you're going. Because only two guests are allowed at one time is a bit of a flimsy excuse when you could do swapovers during visiting hours to make sure all three of you got to visit Dennis.

As others have said, Richard obviously has issues with social situations and how to behave. You and Nick could have arranged to pick him up and take him to the hospital and someone could have explained that this was the right thing to do and that Dennis would appreciate it. Instead of which, you've all left Richard to his own devices and when he hasn't acted in the correct way, it's been used against him.

When Nick decides to secretly organise trips out with only the three of you, you also went along with it. At least you felt guilty about it and have been seeing Richard yourself.

If I were Dennis, I'd be hurt and upset about Richard not visiting too, but can he not appreciate Richard's limitations? And perhaps because you and Nick were visiting Dennis but not telling Richard about it then perhaps Richard thought Dennis wasn't seriously ill, since nobody was visiting him.

I feel extremely sorry for Richard. He obviously struggles a great deal and thought he had friends in you and Dennis with whom he could share a hobby. Then Nick comes along, decides that he doesn't want Richard around and does his best to exclude him when he has the opportunity.

No wonder Richard seems obsessed with Nick driving him to events, since it's Nick's doing that this has all happened. Easy to persuade Dennis who had a difficult but tolerable friend that this friend is a waste of time and he shouldn't bother with him when Nick has manipulated things so well! Add on the hospital stuff and voila! Nick gets his own way completely.

I feel immensely sorry for Richard. He's obviously got a disability but he can no more help the way he is than a blind person could help walking into things, falling over things, and generally being really annoying if all their friends did was watch them stumble about, did nothing then start disagreements with them because they weren't walking in the right direction. But the blind person would have been helped from an early age by a stick, a guide dog, and other aids etc. Richard has been stumbling about for over 30 years when it seems clear he has some kind of disability.

Poor bloke! Annoying and frustrating as he is, and perhaps a friendship best kept to smaller doses, I feel for him.

If you want to try and mend some bridges then why not speak to Dennis and have a chat about possible reasons Richard might not have visited (including him not knowing about you and Nick visiting). I think it's a poor show to say well, he lives in the same town, why couldn't have gone himself. If you speak with Dennis and perhaps talk about possible reasons Richard might be as he is, and maybe both of you (without diagnosing Richard!) could be open to being a bit more understanding when Richard behaves in a way that isn't socially acceptable.

Then if it were me, I'd start organising things with Dennis and Richard and leave Nick out, then see what his reaction is when he finds out. I doubt it'd be pretty. I agree with the other posters who say Nick is a Wendy. He's a nasty piece of work imo.

KittyHawke80 · 04/07/2018 10:14

I think Nick sounds like an arsehole, too. R is obviously hard work, but he’s clearly becoming distressed by the fact that he perceives - with some justification - that he’s being sidelined.

NotAnotherNoughtiesTune · 04/07/2018 10:16

They all sound so angst for (presumably) adult men.

Nick sounds easily annoyed and petty.
Richard sounds self absorbed and entitled.

I'm thinking Dennis and you should head off to the event and let them get on with it.

TakeMeToKernow · 04/07/2018 10:25

@Roosevelt111 you sound really sweet :) it’s been really kind of you to persist with keeping a relationship going with Richard (I find your code name amusing - in our house we actually use that as a code name for someone who is rude to friends and family!!!)

Dennis and Nick can of course choose to deal with/have whatever relationship they want with Richard (or don’t want!). If they’d written their point of view on AIBU, I’m sure they’d have lots of posters telling them to “go NC”.

I suspect you’ll continue in your efforts with Richard. Your recent posts sound like you’re refusing to enable/be a doormat - good for you. Remember to continue not to worry too much about Richard - he’s beyond your control, you can’t change things for him, just be there every now and then for him and remember to breeeeathe oooouuut. Let it goooo. You can’t heeeeeelp. Not your probleeeeem.

Enjoy your event!

NotAnotherNoughtiesTune · 04/07/2018 10:27

But RICHARD DOES SEEM TO BE AGGRAVATING EVERYONE SO ID JUST CUT MY LOSES.

I have a few friends who like myself are VI, some have other conditions too. Many of the parents moddycoddle them which leaves them entitled with no social skills whatsoever.

Il

dinosaursandtea · 04/07/2018 10:33

But Nick is in no way obligated to be Richard's friend! He's allowed to make plans with just the people he likes. The OP is still seeing Richard so he isn't losing out there. If Dennis doesn't want to continue the friendship, that's not surprising after the way he's been treated. And even if Richard doesn't realise what he did was wrong.... it was. And Dennis is within his rights to only nurture friendships with people capable of giving him the emotional support he needs.

QuackPorridgeBacon · 04/07/2018 11:12

SevenStones I agree. No one has to be friends with Richard though but considering they once were, they could have explained things more and actually spilt to him about things rather than sneakily cutting him out of things, waiting for him to mess up and then using that against him.

Katypage · 04/07/2018 11:20

I’m no expert, but Richard sounds very much like my brother and another guy I used to work with who both have Aspergers. Maybe it might be worth looking it up and going to some of the online support pages for people with friends/family that have it for advice on how to interact/communicate better with him, and get Nick to do so too, as it might help you understand why he is as he is? From experience, if he does have it, it’s hard for them to communicate and express themselves (explaining the extreme reaction to the hospital visit) so it may give you some help figuring it all out and maybe getting back to all being friends etc. It would definitely explain why he doesn’t want to do all the things you’ve suggested doing together. With the guy I used to work with, it could be extremely hard when he had an issue at work as any suggestions I made to sort out the issue were just met with negativity and reluctance to actually do anything about it, he just kept going over and over it and getting more worked up.
I hope you manage to get it all sorted xx

Shumpalumpa · 04/07/2018 11:23

OP, I would be wary of being alone with Richard given his anger. Please be cautious.

If he makes you uncomfortable then end the friendship. No one is owed friendship.

Katypage · 04/07/2018 11:26

After just reading your last update, if you’re still even talking to him (which I’d be surprised if you were bless you!) I’d try and get him to see a doctor to get a diagnosis or something as he needs to sort his behaviour out or he’s going to have no friends at all left! If he can get some sort of help/therapy that makes him see that the way he’s behaving and having no regard for anyone else’s feelings isn’t right, he might be able to sort himself out xx good luck!xxx

Branleuse · 04/07/2018 11:49

noone owes anyone friendship, but if all youre looking for in a friend is a perfect all rounder, then everybody misses out.
Richard isnt behaving well or appropriately. Only you can decide whether he has other redeeming qualities that make it worth helping him with or being patient about his obvious deficit of social awareness.

Autism acceptance and awareness doesnt just mean being cool with the ones that barely have any issues.
It also doesnt mean forcing yourself to be friends with someone if you genuinely get nothing back from the friendship. If youve slipped into a parent child dynamic with him, then I think its doomed anyway.

The person with most to lose here is richard, because hes unlikely to find another group of friends easily.

StepBackNow · 04/07/2018 12:47

Not sure why Nick is getting so much stick when it's Richard who is the utter arse.

He just isn't listening because he doesn't want to address his own behaviour.

Just dump him. You can't help people who don't want to be helped.

Mrssnips · 04/07/2018 12:58

Quick question, is Richard on the autism spectrum or suffer from an anxiety disorder? If so to either (even if not formally diagnosed) it could go some way to explaining his behaviours. Whilst hindsight is 20/20 vision might it not have been an idea, knowing he struggles with being left out, to have explained to him the 2 person rule at the hospital and tell him that you would take him to visit on another date? Or all 3 of you go and have one person wait outside and rotate?
With the current situation, I can understand why Richard feels aggrieved but it isn't your responsibility. But Nick has behaved like a twat as well, he must have known what he was doing..... come on. My advice to you is think about how you would feel if you were on the receiving end of this behaviour and act accordingly. But no way should you pay for a hotel.

Br1256 · 04/07/2018 13:44

hi not clear how ill Dennis is now, but you seem to be saying that Richad and Dennis were friends and that Nick has somehow got in the way of that friendship. It sounds a little like both want to be Dennis best friend and exclude the other...shades of the playground maybe? I think if I was in your position It would be Dennis I would be asking to speak to Richard and then maybe the three lads could talk out their issues. It seems to be a bit out of proportion for adults to respond this way.

No one owes anyone any money.

I do feel sorry for Richard, people with poor social skills, for whatever reason, often have a blinkered view of their own and others people's behaviour. I think Nick could be more understanding and even if only two people are allowed to visit the third can always wait outside and swop during the visit. (Although in my experience staff tend to be flexible). I am also curious to know how Richard found out he had been excluded...who told him? I think how Richard would react would have been obvious.

ChangChang · 04/07/2018 14:23

I wonder of perhaps you're worrying a bit too much about Richard, OP? You've tried your best to help him, he has refused that help. Not much more you can do. It sounds as though Nick and Dennis' issues with Richard pre-dated the hospital situation, so perhaps that was the final straw for Nick? If Richard has no other friends, who is helping get him from the train station? And how did Richard find out you'd visited Dennis in hospital? I also think he could get a taxi back to the train rather than paying for a hotel? A tricky one, OP - but as others have suggested, you can only give so much...

jacks11 · 05/07/2018 21:16

I don't understand what the issue is with Nick not inviting Richard to the hospital? Not everyone in a friendship group has to do everything together all the time, it's not mandatory and it's not "cutting someone out". Richard does sound like he has social difficulties of some sort- may or may not be ASD- but that doesn't mean he has to be involved in everything, every single time.

Richard lives in the same place as the hospital, so presumably could go if he wanted to- and presumably he would not NEED to be driven there (even if that is what he would have preferred). It probably wouldn't occur to me to invite someone who lived in the same town to go to the hospital together in those circumstances. I can easily imagine Nick saying to OP- "i'm going to drive to x place to see Dennis- do you want to share a lift?" and not really thinking about inviting anyone else in the friendship group. Add to that that you can only have 2 visitors at one time, and even if it did cross my mind, I'd probably think "well, only 2 visitors at a time anyway and Richard lives in the same place, so he can go anytime".

The other issue is that Richard threw a strop over this situation and then demanded to be taken out for the day by Nick (note, he didn't demand Nick took him to the hospital to see Dennis- he demanded a day out instead to make up for being left out), suggests it's nothing to do with being upset at not being taken to see Dennis. He was also rude to Nick, Nick has not spoken to him since. It is, therefore, hardly surprising that he didn't then offer Richard a lift.

Dennis is upset because Richard did not visit, call, send a card or even send a text whilst he was ill. Then as soon as he got out, was in touch wanting to know when the next day out was. I'm not surprised Dennis is a bit put out, and that's probably got nothing to do with Nick. Even if Richard has a reason not to visit- being anxious about being in a hospital, for example- presumably he is able to send a text, pick up the phone or put pen to paper? Nick is not responsible for the fact that Richard did none of those things.

RabbitsAreTasty · 05/07/2018 21:27

You are well rid of him.

Roosevelt111 · 08/07/2018 15:09

Update: So the event was yesterday. It was a brilliant day (they always are) and we had a great time.

Richard arrived with other friend and they met us at the venue. We were split into two groups. Nick and Dennis in one (smaller group) and me and Richard in the other (bigger group). In our group was another group of people that we already knew. I got talking to another friend (I'll call him Jack) regarding an event related trip he was planning for next year. Richard followed us round, listening in to our conversation although not participating. Jack had previously asked if I wanted to go with him (and his other friends) on this trip. I hadn't previously discussed this with Richard so he didn't know that I had been invited. Richard asked Jack (after listening in) if he could come too. Jack said no and Richard started shouting at Jack. Saying how everyone always left him out and how he never got to go anywhere. Another friend stepped in at this point and took Richard away and spoke to him.

Richard returned to the group soon after but had a face like thunder the rest of the day. He stuck with two other people (a couple) like glue and wouldn't leave them alone. His friend who gave him a lift took him away at the end of the day and he caught his train. He text me this morning to say that he didn't understand why nobody had spoken to him (he hadn't spoken to them) and why I hadn't told him about the trip with Jack before. I hadn't told him because it wasn't definite that I would be able to go and I knew that Richard would probably get upset about it.

We had such a good time yesterday. The atmosphere travelling was so much more relaxed than it normally is. I don't think I realised just how much we'd been walking on eggshells with Richard until now....

OP posts:
Happypuppy · 08/07/2018 15:22

Why did Jack say no to Richard regarding the future trip?

SnuggyBuggy · 08/07/2018 15:34

I feel sorry for Richard as it really doesn't sound like he can help his behavior but he sounds like a nightmare to be around.

girlywhirly · 08/07/2018 16:49

I would be inclined to be brutally honest and tell Richard how appalled you were at his behaviour at the event, shouting at Jack and being so selfish. He has been invited to things, and gone places, so that is a complete lie. He does not have the right to dictate what other people do, with or without him joining them. Ask him why he thinks people should speak to him if he does not speak to them?Tell him he has made you very angry and upset and you don’t want to speak to him at the moment.

I had a feeling that, even though you didn’t mention it originally, having Richard in the car travelling to events would require the others to guard what they said. I think you are seeing what others have perceived about Richard’s less desirable behaviours now. He is becoming hard work and the group shouldn’t have to keep things unsaid or allow Richard to spoil their enjoyment, and he will, as he is even more demanding than before.

Wildlingofthewest · 08/07/2018 16:56

Urgh god
Sorry but you all need to Grow up
Tell “Richard” to do one and get on with your lives, you don’t like the guy and your going behind his back to make plans without him anyway etc so just cut the guy loose and move on.
Reading your posts it’s like the kind of silly nonsense primary school kids say “no one likes me! Your leaving me out!”

pandarific · 08/07/2018 17:21

Honestly, at 30, living with enabling parents, Richard will never change.

It's sad, but honestly op this is the dictionary definition of not your circus, not your monkeys. This goes whether or not he has ASD or any other disorder - if someone is unkind, selfish abusive or manipulative, you are under absolutely no obligation to have contact with them.