to find it hard to talk about race/racism as a black woman without feeling like I'm 'playing the race card'

[CalliopeSparkles]

Sorry if this isn't the most eloquently put post. I read some of the threads on here where people seem to know so much about their subject, it's a little intimidating at times (not a bad thing) so will do my best to get my point across!

I am a mixed race woman. Black and Caucasian. Recently saw a clip of George the Poet during a search:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BkmV6viAfz3/?utmsource=iggsharesheet&igshid=1ilippwo0ufby

Nothing we haven't seen before!

My dad is a runner and went out running one evening. He was pulled over by the police who asked to search him and his bag, saying he looked like a known criminal (he's a professional with a clean record, never broken a law in his life - other than simple ones like breaking the speed limit or not wearing a seatbelt). My brother was strip searched in a shopping mall once after someone thought he was shop lifting (he wasn't), my other brother lives in London, works for the BBC, clean record, and has been stopped and searched 4 times in 2 years, all for no reason (that he could tell anyway). These are all hurtful for me to hear and I know there is something wrong with this. If I've ever entered in to a discussion about it however it often turns in to people becoming defensive, trying to defend why the searches might have been done, and a refusal to see an issue. I believe that most people in this world are good, and kind, and are in no way bigoted or racist, however why is it so hard for some people to simply admit that racism does exist? It's almost like it's taken as a personal insult at times, even though I am as explanatory and unbiased as can be in my discussion.

The last straw for me was the other day when my whole office was in total uproar about a crime stoppers report regarding a white male that was called a 'cracker' by two black men. This is awful racist behaviour, however the anger is never there when it's the every day 'normal' racism we hear about towards ethnic minorities.

AIBU to think that there IS a problem and to be frustrated when trying to discuss it with those who won't engage unless it's their own race that's affected?

Martha - my point was that 'playing the race card' wasn't even going to get her anywhere anyway, so your example of 'playing the race card' is pretty ludicrous.

Why the hell would you give that as an example on a thread where an OP is asking about having thoughtful discussions with white people about race? What's the relevance? She's not asking people to list all the times they've seen someone 'play the race card'.

According to another thread right now, something can only be racist if it’s intended that way 😑

Its a discussion about how people see it. And clearly its not always a black/white divide as sometimes both races can say pretty stupid things, much like ex friend did. I never condoned what she said omly pointing out she felt she could pull a metaphorical race card if she was arrested. Maybe she felt that would stop her being searched i dont know why she felt that would work but she did. So its not as simple as thinking all black people think the same. Nor do all white people. I full agree with what the Op is saying.

Here we go folks, this is why we don't talk about racism!

People have so far used single examples to minimise racism, to discredit those who choose to discuss it. People have implied that we should be happy with the state of the UK because racism is worse in other countries. People have excused and tried to justify why the numerous searches were carried out on my family, indicating that it may not be racist and missing the point of the thread entirely.

I think I'm starting to get where the foundation of Rennie's book stemmed from.

And no I haven't just come here to prove a point. Of course I haven't. Even if I had, you guys are the ones proving it, not me.

Op people can only view things from their own experiences. Its not targetted at you. The nature of discussion surely relies on different possibilities rather than people just agreeing to things they experience differently. All discussions will have varying opinions from massively differing to mostly agreeing and anything in between. Its good that people can discuss it and if you think people are wrong, tell them why.

The minimising from some white people on this thread is both appalling and utterly depressing.

I am white, I understand that I have white privilege and I understand that I unfairly have it easier than someone who is non white.

One of my closest friends is black, and when she tells me about the “low level” (her words, not mine) bullshit that she experiences on a daily, yes daily, basis it makes my heart hurt.

Recently she was assaulted and robbed and intimidated, and the police did nothing (plenty of evidence including dash cam) When the same person did it to a white man, suddenly they got arrested and charged.

She can’t eat a banana in public for fear of fucking monkey noises (that one blew me away)

As a white woman I listen to my friends, and I hear what they are telling me. Because I don’t have the right to dismiss their experiences as women of colour (I’m sorry if that’s the wrong phrase, it’s the one that all my non white friends use so I’m going on their choice of language), and I certainly don’t have the right to doubt them.

Just as they don’t have the right to dismiss my experiences as a disabled woman.

When someone is telling you of racism they have experienced, even if it seems minor to you, please don’t dismiss them, or minimise it. Because that shit hurts, it’s profoundly wrong and we all need to speak up against it, whatever our skin colour.

OP I’m sorry this thread has gone the predictable way, and I’m gutted that once again you’ve been dismissed.

For what it’s worth, when I see racism, or hear it, I challenge it. Because if nobody speaks up it becomes normal, and it isn’t. At all.

black people complaining about stop and search dont know they are born, try riding a 50 cc moped in govanhill

Yanbu. And I really recommend the Reni Eddo Lodge book. It certainly opened my eyes, and yet she did it in a way that didn't make me feel like a deliberately racist person, but did make me realise the extent to which I have quietly benefitted from my privilege in the UK.

Some white people simply can't get their head round the fact that the best people to talk about racism are the minorities who are most victim to it (primarily from the majority I.e. white). They only want to hear their own view when they have literally no personal experience of what it's like to be any other non-white ethnicity in this country. This is why you will see and hear comments about how it's not racist that stop and search is predominantly performed on ethnic minorities.

I think with time it is changing. A lot of my generation (mid 20s) are very liberal. I think this trend will continue into the younger generation. There are still young people from Britain first/BNP/EDL type families who hold awful views though.

Note I said 'some white people' and this is based on my personal experience as an ethnic minority. So if anyone starts spouting about how they are white and don't think that, remember that I didn't say every white person!

My DH is black. About a month ago, he was running to the corner shop five minutes up the road before it closed (9pm) to get me chocolate. The police stopped him and asked him where he was going, what his name was and where he lived. He was just running. He just came home after that.

We've been spat at. Our children have been racially abused in their pushchairs.

Racism is as alive as ever, and all anyone has to do to realise this is crack open a newspaper.

Brilliant thread OP, and so very necessary.

Personally, as a black woman with two dual heritage kids I do despair sometimes. Day by day it's increasingly obvious that covert racism is rife where we live. The type which is thinly veiled behind middle class nicities. My youngest, my DD8, is a particular target for rude, unwanted remarks which I feel are a great way for people to say isn't she... 'different' from our nice, normal kids . My son has more Caucasian facial features and I believe that's why he's not had to deal with any remarks of this nature.

If people are unwilling to recognise the completely obvious racism you described in your OP I've no hope at all of getting people on board with the covert racism my family face every day.

I too have pretty much given up speaking of this in real life.

I'm also a mixed race woman (Black, Asian and Caucasian) but generally people assume I am from northern Africa. Can't recommend Reni's book enough, it's a great and easy read.

I think it is much like sexism it is very hard for a white person or man to really understand because each example can be explained away without them seeing the full picture. I am a bit worried how it will be for my own kids as their own father will not really understand what they are going though as teens and young adults.

I do think we have to keep talking though, as annoying as it is!

Oh and if anyone is under the illusion that racism is a problem that's dying out with the previous generation, think again... My son is 8. He's been called a 'n*gger', a 'brown piece of poo' and told he's disgusting because he's not 'pink' by peers his own age. They're learning that from somewhere and it's not Biff and Chip.

@MarthaArthur why are you explaining that to me? I have told people why I think they are wrong, just as they have done to me? No problem at all it's the nature of discussion. You're being incredibly patronising.

@OohMavis gosh that's heartbreaking. Your poor boy. That's just awful

I'm not the one being patronising. You started a thread saying you wanted a discussion and then when people gave their own experiences and views you kept asking why you bothered even starting the thread. It could have been really intereating to discuss as i pointed out i agreed with you but you just wanted to be mad at people.

@MarthaArthur are you honestly telling OP you don’t understand why? Honestly.

People are dismissing the awfulness of what happens every day, minimising and pretending it isn’t as bad.

It’s ok to have a discussion, but for a white person to tell a black person that racism isn’t real or that it’s in their head is about the most offensive thing I can think of.

(I’m white btw, in case you didn’t read my previous post)

sodding i have no idea what you are talking about.

I pointed out it was an interesting thread. Gave a few of my own examples. Had someone get pissed off with my example and then the op implied she regretted starting the thread and called me patronising for pointing out how discussion worked. Never did i say anything you implied.

I had a really long detailed post typed out - twice - but it got lost, twice. All I'm going to say is that I'm white, am very aware of my privilege and am horrified at some of the things I hear said. Gods alone know how bad it would be were I not white.

I was lucky enough to undergo diversity training as police staff, a two-day version of the five-day Police Scotland officer training. Even though I thought I was switched on, that course opened my eyes to so much that just went over my head before. Ever since then, I've done a lot of soul-searching to try to recognise my own learned prejudices and not to let them influence my behaviour.

As a white woman, I try to be observant, to believe what women of other ethnicities tell me and to challenge racism when I come across it. I don't know what more I can do. I at least got my late father (born 1920) to stop railing against 'Jews' instead of the Israeli government, though I myself have been called racist for supporting the Palestinian people though I'm very careful to specify that it is the Israeli government I have a problem with (and share items from Jewish protest organisations on social media). So we're never too old to be challenged or learn.

But you’re getting angry with OP who is right to be upset about how the thread has gone?

@MarthaArthur explaining to a grown adult how discussion works in your eyes isn't patronising? then telling me I shouldn't be mad? Did you read what this post was about? I think I have reason to be mad. I'm not sure what point you are trying to prove.

Im not getting angry at the op i agree with her and want her to continue the discussion not to feel like shes being backed into a corner. I dont want such an important thread to discend into fighting and the argument to be lost.

Do you know what. I am out. Enjoy your thread op.

The reason I am disappointed with this thread is the same reason for which I would be disappointed with a similar RL conversation. I think there are some really obvious reasons why I am disappointed by some of the comments. Just because it's an online forum, doesn't mean I'm able to just switch off and not be disheartened by certain comments or opinions. It's normal, and human, and I don't actually think there's anything wrong with being mad about certain things.