to find it hard to talk about race/racism as a black woman without feeling like I'm 'playing the race card'

[CalliopeSparkles]

Sorry if this isn't the most eloquently put post. I read some of the threads on here where people seem to know so much about their subject, it's a little intimidating at times (not a bad thing) so will do my best to get my point across!

I am a mixed race woman. Black and Caucasian. Recently saw a clip of George the Poet during a search:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BkmV6viAfz3/?utmsource=iggsharesheet&igshid=1ilippwo0ufby

Nothing we haven't seen before!

My dad is a runner and went out running one evening. He was pulled over by the police who asked to search him and his bag, saying he looked like a known criminal (he's a professional with a clean record, never broken a law in his life - other than simple ones like breaking the speed limit or not wearing a seatbelt). My brother was strip searched in a shopping mall once after someone thought he was shop lifting (he wasn't), my other brother lives in London, works for the BBC, clean record, and has been stopped and searched 4 times in 2 years, all for no reason (that he could tell anyway). These are all hurtful for me to hear and I know there is something wrong with this. If I've ever entered in to a discussion about it however it often turns in to people becoming defensive, trying to defend why the searches might have been done, and a refusal to see an issue. I believe that most people in this world are good, and kind, and are in no way bigoted or racist, however why is it so hard for some people to simply admit that racism does exist? It's almost like it's taken as a personal insult at times, even though I am as explanatory and unbiased as can be in my discussion.

The last straw for me was the other day when my whole office was in total uproar about a crime stoppers report regarding a white male that was called a 'cracker' by two black men. This is awful racist behaviour, however the anger is never there when it's the every day 'normal' racism we hear about towards ethnic minorities.

AIBU to think that there IS a problem and to be frustrated when trying to discuss it with those who won't engage unless it's their own race that's affected?

@TooManyPaws there's nothing more you can do. If you intervene when racism is happening, no matter what your race, it will 99% of the time mean a hell of a lot to the person on the receiving end of said racism. Sounds like it's a good training course!

I certainly would give police my details.

this is about a gang profiling thing the police use in London

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-44045914

I wouldn’t, I don’t trust them. Not anymore.

I know i bowed out but to bobobob its not always that simple. I've been in that situation and didnt want to give my details over when i did no wrong. Sometimes its fear or adrenaline or confusion or just being sick and tired of it happening that you refuse to give your details. I'm not sure if refusing to give details is a crime even.

I agree with you 100% op.

I'm white and from a very white area, so I wasn't fully aware of this until I went to university. At 23, I had a black boyfriend. Seeing how he was treated in everyday life compared to my previous (all white) boyfriends was a huge eye-opener for me. When I was out with him, taxis wouldn't pick us up, police would slow down near us, and so forth. This was completely new to me, but he wasnt shocked at all, which made it even more sad

Sorry OP. I didn’t mean to offend. I was actually more commenting on other people’s comments on the thread about the uk as a whole. Not trying to argue with you.

It’s not surprising that this thread is going the way it is. People who proudly say they are not racist can often turn out to be very much so and simply cannot understand how they are being racist.

At work I manage an ethnically diverse team. The manager before me once referred to the non white team members as “them ethnics”, rather than y’know, using their names. Full sentence “I’m even fair to them ethnics”. I was appalled and said so. That mental othering she did whilst clearly being a massively racist also spilled out into how she interacted with those members of the team. Without her even realising. One lady was so quiet when I took over the team that I wasn’t entirely convinced of her Engish language skills. It turns out that being treated like the “other” damaged her confidence massively, and actually she’s a funny and chatty lady. Recently she thanked me for making her feel like a valued member of the team and it made me feel really sad for her. She’s been on the team 10 years, I’ve managed it less than two. She felt like shit for over 8 years because of daily low level racism, at the hands of someone who would be offended if she was told she was a racist. I don’t think I’m perfect by any means but I’m not a racist cunt.

I sincerely hope this thread has picked up after the first quarter, I couldn't bring myself to read through a millions more posts suggesting why your family have been stopped and searched.

There has been signifi ant research don't on this by the police in recent years and there is a massive problem with disportiotionate use of stop and dear h for black people. West Midlands Police and Crime Commissioner has a particular interest. I hope that someone else has also pointed this out and that OP hasn't got pissed off and left.

Will read a bit more now

Caliope I'm a white woman, and I get (as much as someone white can get it) what you're saying. Can I say please, please keep talking about this stuff if you can find the strength to do so?

Yes there are racist wankers out there (both the in-your-face wankers and the dog-whistly, under-the-radar wankers) - but there are also lurkers who will be reading this thread and maybe thinking to themselves "shit, I never realised what it must be like to live with this day in, day out", or even reading the wankers being wankers and having the penny drop for the first time as to what it feels like to be on the receiving end of this dog-whistly racism.

Calliope, thank you for this thread.

I am mixed, but not black. I live in London, I don't get much racism personally.

When I hear my black friends talk about their experiences I honestly want to cry. The level of shit, the CONSTANT level of shit, they get is unbelievable. And their children get it too.

I work in the criminal justice system. I've known openly racist judges (using the term 'niggers' and 'chinks' at home), racist barristers (suggesting all Asians are dishonest, or predatory paedophiles), racist solicitors (suggesting black men exploit white women, the 'Nigerian school of fraud', the 'Vietnamese gardens' etc etc) and other racist assumptions being drawn all the time. The police are without any doubt the worst of the lot. But what is just as bad is the way they are rarely challenged or called out on it. White people don't want to own it, even when it's right in front of their faces. This is a huge part of the problem.

Dark skinned people are called paranoid. In my opinion they're not nearly paranoid enough. And I hate the term 'the race card' because it's a pretty racist term in and of itself. It suggests that any allegation of racism is tactical and disingenuous. It is a way of silencing black people from making legitimate criticism.

On top of this is the gaslighting - like some posters further up the thread. I find it so rude to suggest that they, coming from a position of total ignorance, would know better than the person who was actually there having the experience. Only a white person would have the arrogance to suggest this to a black person; and I have to say that when I see white people doing this it's pretty clear to me what they really think about black people. This is how racism works in the 21st Century.

FFS, everyone knows that stop and search grounds are easily fabricated.

OP I hear you, thank you for starting the thread. I am really quite disgusted and bemused by the minimisers and apologists missing the point

I worked with a lovely woman who's family were from Pakistan. She was amazing, so active in the community, she really was one of those people striving to make the world a better place.

She was also desperately trying to get the council to move herself and her children to a different area. And it took months. I was concerned about their safety, because the racist abuse she described was sickening.

Sadly, I also have racist relatives, which pisses me off, especially my DGM complaining about foreigners when her family were immigrants.

Also white people are probably pretty poor at giving physical descriptions of people from other racial backgrounds. Typically I would say skin colour, hair colour, possibly eye colour, then height, build, hairstyle. If I had to describe an average height and build black man that didn't have any really unique/distinctive features such as birthmark or hairstyle, my description would be along the lines of black man, average height and build, short hair and skin tone. This a pretty non descript description.

My sister lived in Japan and we discussed giving physical descriptions. Japenese typically describe facial features and she was told she had a high nose and looked like Diana. She looks nothing like Diana to me, but to some Japenese she did. I do now try to pay more attention to facial features, but would even struggle to describe my own eyes, nose and mouth shapes.

Sorry I digressed in my previous post. Unless it is overt racism people will try to justify the situation and deny racism is at play.

Yea I get where you’re coming from and the treatment your fannily has experienced is completely racist unacceptable.

I think the police are intrinsically racist and that needs to be fixed.

We need to change this horrible situation. How can we help?

I totally agree with you OP I do think you are more likely to be searched or stopped by police for being of an ethnic minority.

But I've also seen the other side where (and this is not just a one off occasion) that people have used the race card when they have done something wrong. For example getting ejected from a club/pub for their inappropriate behaviour and playing the you've only kicked me out because I'm black 🙄

I don't think there should be a race card at all. We need to just live in a peaceful happy everyone is equal place 😁 though obviously this isn't the case sadly.

Good point OP. I’m Caucasian and currently live in the UK and I see the difficulty some people have with talking about racism as similar to the difficulty some men have talking about sexism. They find it difficult to understand the ‘others’ experience and perspective so become defensive thinking we’re trying to label them too ... even when we’re not. Sorry, don’t think I’ve been very clear.

Sorry OP just read the rest of the thread, so sorry it took the turn it did. We all need to be talking about this and not let victim blaming be normalised.

I think the whole "he's playing the race card" examples people have given is a natural byproduct of us talking about race problems more.

I think it means you/we should talk more, not less. White people might feel uncomfortable. So what? That's a good thing, it means we're being challenged.

I feel lucky that I just have to feel uncomfortable/challenged occasionally, vs experiencing the kind of institutionalised racism that you and your family have.

I don't mean to derail the issue and make this all about something else, but I feel a similar thing happens with sexism. If a woman ever mentions an experience where she has felt discriminated against due to her sex, lots of men pipe up about instances where men feel they have been discriminated against and refuse to accept that sexism against women exists.

Sorry to compare it, I just guess that as I white woman I didn't want to patronise you by saying I know an awful lot about your experiences of racism as I black woman, but I can totally see where you are coming from. Everyone time someone talks about someone playing a "card" or "political correctness gone mad" they are usually bigoted dickheads who cannot recognise their own privilege. I think you have a very valid point.

My boyfriend is French, born and bred, but he has Algerian parents and an Arabic name. He is currently trying to emigrate to the uk and buy a business here. He has had no end of problems. Trying to transfer money, or even get through customs without being searched, has been very difficult as by default he is "dodgy" in the eyes of any official. It has been eye opening for me, and something he has dealt with all his life.

Great thread OP. Race discussions make people uncomfortable and there are people with racist views. Unfortunately it seems to have become more acceptable to vocalize it post brexit.

We need to talk about it more and kudos for starting this thread.

Haven't read the full thread but I totally agree with you. I'm surrounded by so called progressives who refuse to accept that we are surrounded by racism and that they perpetuate racism by not challenging the system we work with. I recently publicly stuck my neck out to lay out how my profession is racist. There is a discord with professional bodies saying that they are working against racism, and it doesn't exist, at the same time as Aboriginal people (I'm in Australia) saying the system is chock full of it. The statistics about Aboriginal participation say it all too, and the lack of improvement over the last few years. Non-indigenous Australians just will not listen to them.
On the other hand, I assume this thread descended into identity politics arguments. I resent having to respect and follow the views of all people of an oppressed minority just because of who they were born as. I prefer to support people based on their ideas. We end up with a situation where a tyrant with a privileged education shuts down any debate and self appoints themselves as the arbiters of everything. They get upheld by a clique of mean girls. Look at how we are told by Everyday Feminism we must listen to what Muslim women want, and what they want is Halal lipstick.
I reserve the right to support women in Iran etc who are facing real oppression and violence but the shrillest voices tell me that is "ignoring Muslim women/my white feminism etc".

Because it's easier to make you @CalliopeSparkles feel guilty than to accept and acknowledge their own inherent bigotry and racist ways.

Now not everyone is a racist; but you would be surprised at how ingrained a lot of racist behaviours are so much so that people don't even realise they are contributing to it.

As someone married to a white man I am constantly educating him! He can never relate to my black experiences... but he now understands a lot more... we have children it's important he does.

Also, I don't engage with strangers anymore. It's a waste of energy trying to educate people. I end the conversation and move on; I just take a mental note of people to avoid.

I read this thread to be better informed, get facts, and I got what I was looking for. What I got on top was a great big dollop of racism, which is clearly alive and well here on Mumsnet. A sad experience.