to find it hard to talk about race/racism as a black woman without feeling like I'm 'playing the race card'

[CalliopeSparkles]

Sorry if this isn't the most eloquently put post. I read some of the threads on here where people seem to know so much about their subject, it's a little intimidating at times (not a bad thing) so will do my best to get my point across!

I am a mixed race woman. Black and Caucasian. Recently saw a clip of George the Poet during a search:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BkmV6viAfz3/?utmsource=iggsharesheet&igshid=1ilippwo0ufby

Nothing we haven't seen before!

My dad is a runner and went out running one evening. He was pulled over by the police who asked to search him and his bag, saying he looked like a known criminal (he's a professional with a clean record, never broken a law in his life - other than simple ones like breaking the speed limit or not wearing a seatbelt). My brother was strip searched in a shopping mall once after someone thought he was shop lifting (he wasn't), my other brother lives in London, works for the BBC, clean record, and has been stopped and searched 4 times in 2 years, all for no reason (that he could tell anyway). These are all hurtful for me to hear and I know there is something wrong with this. If I've ever entered in to a discussion about it however it often turns in to people becoming defensive, trying to defend why the searches might have been done, and a refusal to see an issue. I believe that most people in this world are good, and kind, and are in no way bigoted or racist, however why is it so hard for some people to simply admit that racism does exist? It's almost like it's taken as a personal insult at times, even though I am as explanatory and unbiased as can be in my discussion.

The last straw for me was the other day when my whole office was in total uproar about a crime stoppers report regarding a white male that was called a 'cracker' by two black men. This is awful racist behaviour, however the anger is never there when it's the every day 'normal' racism we hear about towards ethnic minorities.

AIBU to think that there IS a problem and to be frustrated when trying to discuss it with those who won't engage unless it's their own race that's affected?

I think that people who have experienced prejudice, even in smaller or one off ways are more open to understanding.

As a Scot I’ve experienced xenophobia in England (no I know not all English people are like that, and that England in general isn’t like that) and as a disabled woman and mother of disabled children I’ve experienced it, so it makes me want to be an ally to anyone experiencing bigotry and hatred. Because it hurts and it’s wrong, and until each and every one of us realises that and makes conscious efforts to challenge and change it, nothing changes.

OP, sorry, I'm dashing off to work in five minutes so no time to read the whole thread.

I just wanted to say that as a black woman, I completely agree with you and I find it really sad that so many white people won't listen to what we say or grant us the authority on whether racism is still a problem.

I was recently involved in a thread about the use of racist language. It depressed me so much that MNers (who I think of as mostly kind, understanding, tolerant and liberal) just couldn't get the point.

"Why I'm no longer talking to white people about racism" is an amazing book.
I genuinely have given up talking to white people about racism

Benandhollysmum
I grew up on a council street and was also poor but also subjected to racist abuse as young as 4 or 5.
I’m now reasonably well off live in nice house with a nice car but still subject to racism.

@Rosewhitetips
Are you a teacher today?
if so shouldn’t you be focusing on pupils...

@laurG

that the sooner Scotland is booted out if the U.K. the better then I can ‘go home’, etc etc all of this and I’m a white British citizen. I can’t imagine what others go through. I really can’t.

That's interesting. Generally I've found the 'bloody foreigners' type to actually mean 'bloody non-white people'. My response to 'immigrants can go home' type comments, as a white person who's grandmothers family were immigrants has often been 'You want me to go back to a country I've never been to and where I don't speak the language?' At which point they trip over themselves to explain they didn't mean me at all they meant whoever it was they actually meant (usually muslims). I, obviously, find this unacceptable.

Anyway, more generally, how can anyone deny that there is far too much racism in this country when some people's response to Grenfell was pretty much that 'those people wouldn't have died if they hadn't been in this country'. FFS.

The overall response to Grenfell (apart from the fantastic community and people who pulled together to offer real, practical help in the aftermath) has been utterly appalling.

And it’s entirely to do with race/country of origin. It’s something that shames this country, and it SHOULD shame this country, it should never have happened and the response should have been (and I believe would have been had the residents been white and middle class) immediate and comprehensive.

Ghanagirl
@Rosewhitetips
Are you a teacher today?
if so shouldn’t you be focusing on pupils...

😳

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I will be honest and say that as a white woman I had to use my BRAIN to acknowledge fully that I have white privilege - because my natural reaction is always going to be 'I'm not racist'. I hope I'm not; but I do have privilege in a racist system. And it's unclear to me exactly how the two differ on a practical level.

I only posted this because I agree with you OP and staying silent on these things on a thread containing so much latent (and explicit) racism is the same as expressing those views yourself.

There is a lot of racism, xenophobia and general prejudice here in the UK. I sometimes think that a lot of people just don't really like anyone who isn't exactly like them! Experiencing that yourself though, if you are a white Brit, is unusual. The first time I did was in a post office in Scotland and it shocked me to the core to be told 'Go back where you come from - you're not welcome here' (I'm English). I was really shaken up afterwards and I still remember it 25 years later. But I have no idea what it's like to be a BAME person here in the UK and listening to people who are and who have to deal with that sort of shit every day is really important.

I hope you don't give up talking to white people about race OP. I think we need to have a lot more discussions about racism and xenophobia. A black mum at our school said to me recently that she choose our school for her sons because they didn't seem bothered by their race. I asked what she meant and she said some schools they looked around 'didn't want any more black children, as they already had enough'. That kind of thing just isn't on your radar as a white person. That's white privilege. Another Muslim mum said that there are plenty of countries in Europe where they wouldn't feel comfortable going on holiday in the summer. They tend to go to Turkey, because as Muslims they are welcome, their dietary needs are catered for, and they know they can relax without worrying that they'll encounter prejudice that would ruin their holiday.

Let's not pretend that black people wouldn't be the same towards whites if the situations were reversed

Oh that's OK then. It's normal and black people are just pissed off that didn't get the kicking in first?

Well we'll never find that out will we?

Let's not pretend that black people wouldn't be the same towards whites if the situations were reversed
Yeah bad luck black people if your ancestors could have been bothered to invade countries and enslave people you could have had an unearned sense of superiority too.

YANBU, OP.

My dad faced incredible prejudice/racism during the 80s & 90s as a young Irish republican traveling frequently between Dublin & London. He got stopped every single journey & was abused. Only a year ago or so I was told by someone I worked with that I must have supported the IRA, wtf????One of my good friends is Jewish & her grandparents changed their surname & hid their faith when they settled here after the war.

Sadly rascism is alive & well. A few of my friends are in mixed marriages & they still sometimes get abuse (from black & white people) which I found shocking when I first witnessed it. Not that long ago I witnessed a Indian women tell an African lady to “go back home”. I was agog particularly as she had her children with her. My Ghanaian friend is very dark & fond of a flash car so obvs gets stopped all the time. He just puts up & shuts up.

@Missbrick1

Not that long ago I witnessed a Indian women tell an African lady to “go back home”. I was agog particularly as she had her children with her.

Being an immigrant or descended from immigrants sadly does not make someone more tolerant.

I'd also say that use of the BAME banner maybe creates the impression of a coherent group when actually there are divisions within it - which I'm not claiming to fully understand, it's just what I've seen with people I know.

Not sure if I've phrased that as well as I could.

Maybe it's a little controversial but I do believe some people use the race card. However, (before I get flamed), I think this happens 100x less than actual racism. Racism does exist, without a doubt! And it's wrong. My friend was pulled over 3 times in a week and told similar "you look like a known criminal". They said they were looking for drugs but to me it seemed more that they were inferring a young black man can't drive a nice car without doing something dodgy. (He wasn't doing anything dodgy btw, seat belt on, not speeding, not even playing loud music) surely they'd know the car to look out for if it was a known criminal! Or maybe I'm a cynic. I know it's not the same really but I've had racist comments thrown at me for being Irish, it doesn't bother me but it's still disgusting!!

@gosegoosey.

Known criminals rarely use the same car for an extended period. For exactly this reason.

mirime Oh I know, one of my closest friends is Hindu & there is defo lots of prejudice within different communities. I was just more shocked because it was an awful thing to say, no real reason for it (a minor dispute over a suitcase) & there were children present. It’s just not something I would ever expect anyone to say. I did say that was a disgusting thing to say & let’s all just calm down etc.

Here's a good response to the "race card" line OP!

I cannot understand why the default for many (most?) white people when hearing someone with any other skin colour say they've been discriminated against is to essentially not believe them.

It's not even remotely logical that Britain's BAME population has nothing better to do with their time than to collude to make up stories to tell white people/complain about just for..well, what exactly? Attention?! It's ludicrous.

Imagine what it would be like if someone recounted an incident of racist behaviour they experienced and the response was "I believe you". Not some (c)overt attempt at gaslighting or general disbelief.

But white people seem to have decided that the psychological cost of believing racism exists in the U.K. is more painful to them than the actual racism their compatriots experience.

Because not everything that is perceived as racism actually is?

I was selling my car on gumtree. A black guy and 2 of his friends came to buy it, wanted to take it out for a test drive. When I refused to let him take it out on his own, it was accused of being racist and he then spat at my car and said it was a piece of shit that he didn’t want anyway.

I wouldn’t have let ANYONE take the car unaccompanied, it had nothing to do with his colour.

I do acknowledge racism is a huge problem but I also think one of your situations in the OP could be kind of a self fulfilling prophecy.

If you’re told that every time you go into a shop you need to be careful as you’re More likely to be accused of stealing, you’re going to be on edge, looking over your shoulder, which then points you out as acting suspicious and more likely to be singled out.

"one of your situations in the OP could be kind of a self fulfilling prophecy."

This statement is an example of why the op started this thread.

The post by @drunkenunicorn is spot on, racism in this country is covert and is mainly low-level incidents.

As a black woman I've experienced the double whammy of racism and sexual harassment on a regular basis. I first became aware of racism when I was about 4/5 years old - I was called a gollywog.

I was born in this country and I've never lived anywhere else, in the last ten years I've felt a strong feeling of I don't belong here - but have no idea where else I would go?

I have also stopped discussing racism, with white people because I'm tired and fed up of being told it's all in my head or people making up excuses to rationalize the racist outbursts.

Last week a male patient randomly asked me "when are you going home?". I initially hoped he meant what time my shift ended, so I told him 7pm. He re-phrased the question and asked me "when are you going back home to your country"?. I was born here and I speak with a strong regional accent, why would he assume I'm not from here? When I shared this with the team of nurses during handover, they all laughed it off and rationalised that he said it because he's old and probably got undiagnosed dementia.

@Lokissister Do you take the same view with all women who take care when they are going out at night not to be raped or sexually assaulted?

While I have always been aware that I may be followed around shops due to the colour of my skin, I don't expect to be. As a teen I use to randomly enjoy annoying security guards and shop assistants who did it. Now as a middle age black women the only people who tend to do it are white male shop assistants. Unfortunately for them I am likely to get their names and make a complaint about their behaviour, which is mild as I know mothers of BAME teenage children/young adults who have done worse. Also in my area the people who I've seen apprehended for shop lifting are white males.

@DrunkUnicorn Ahh the intersection of racism and sexism - non-white people can't earn lots of money legally especially if they are women. I had an issue with moving money from one of my account to another of my accounts in a bank a few years ago where I had to go into the bank twice. I had checked by phone with customer service before I went in the first time that I took the correct ID with me. However the white manager decided she wouldn't do the transaction. I got on the phone to query with customer service if there was any reason why and there was no reason, so I went back in again. She then had the cheek to say to me "Who gave you permission to do the transaction?" It was my own money I was moving, both accounts where in my name and the history of the accounts were known to the bank. For some reason she proudly gave me her name so I could complain about her to head office, who phoned me up embarrassed.