to find it hard to talk about race/racism as a black woman without feeling like I'm 'playing the race card'

[CalliopeSparkles]

Sorry if this isn't the most eloquently put post. I read some of the threads on here where people seem to know so much about their subject, it's a little intimidating at times (not a bad thing) so will do my best to get my point across!

I am a mixed race woman. Black and Caucasian. Recently saw a clip of George the Poet during a search:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BkmV6viAfz3/?utmsource=iggsharesheet&igshid=1ilippwo0ufby

Nothing we haven't seen before!

My dad is a runner and went out running one evening. He was pulled over by the police who asked to search him and his bag, saying he looked like a known criminal (he's a professional with a clean record, never broken a law in his life - other than simple ones like breaking the speed limit or not wearing a seatbelt). My brother was strip searched in a shopping mall once after someone thought he was shop lifting (he wasn't), my other brother lives in London, works for the BBC, clean record, and has been stopped and searched 4 times in 2 years, all for no reason (that he could tell anyway). These are all hurtful for me to hear and I know there is something wrong with this. If I've ever entered in to a discussion about it however it often turns in to people becoming defensive, trying to defend why the searches might have been done, and a refusal to see an issue. I believe that most people in this world are good, and kind, and are in no way bigoted or racist, however why is it so hard for some people to simply admit that racism does exist? It's almost like it's taken as a personal insult at times, even though I am as explanatory and unbiased as can be in my discussion.

The last straw for me was the other day when my whole office was in total uproar about a crime stoppers report regarding a white male that was called a 'cracker' by two black men. This is awful racist behaviour, however the anger is never there when it's the every day 'normal' racism we hear about towards ethnic minorities.

AIBU to think that there IS a problem and to be frustrated when trying to discuss it with those who won't engage unless it's their own race that's affected?

@SeriousSimon 1) why are they being targeted in the first place? There are numerous people who do comply initially and are left feeling paranoid as they are stopped more often than could be accounted for as random.

2. please understand that when you've been targeted so many times due to the colour of your skin, that there will come a point where you think 'actually no, you can't search me, not this time' - stupid? Maybe. Understandable? I say yes.

Could you brother have any comeback legally? Why on earth didn't they watch the CCTV?

@teaandtoast there's no point whatsoever in him even trying. It was likely because the accusation came from a member of staff.

A story I heard from a colleague of Jamaican descent in London, in the late 80's. His brother, an IT contractor earning in the region of 1000 pounds a week, was pulled over by police while driving a new sports car. After being told that it was his car, the police wanted to know how someone "like him" could afford that car.

Oh god Calli, it seems as though overt racism is on the decline, it has transcended into more covert and underhanded forms of racism like this. Buster really gives good examples of why POC do not really talk about it with white people, they just do not understand unless it happens to them or their family. I am a half Armenian and half Anglo English, but have not experienced it myself as my skin is more pale than my mothers who are darker skin. It is really awful, I hear of Police officers in America pulling over POC more so than whites.

Random stop and search is illegal.
He must have been provided grounds at the time and the option to collect written record within 3 months if not taken at the scene. Perhaps if you or your brother knew the grounds it may dispel your fears.

Sorry if your discourse only extends to people who

And if it settles you my wife was stopped and searched in a major London train station

@Aeroflotgirl that is assuming that buster is white? However I do agree that overt racism is much less commonplace (and actually in my opinion I am much less offended by the blatant overt stuff than I am the rest..)

Can I preface this by agreeing with you that racism does exist. I was born and brought up in Newham in east London, which is a highly diverse area and I’ve seen firsthand some of the things you’ve described.

However in the account given about your father, if he matched the description given of a suspect then surely the police were only doing their job? Imagine if he WAS the one they were looking for but didn’t approach him for fear of being seen as racist? Where does the line get drawn?

I work in retail and the perpetrators of I’d say 80% of our shoplifting is groups of teenage girls of ANY colour at the make up display, which is why our security is mostly focussed there.

I think it doesn't help to say any particular incident may not have had racist undercurrents, that it may have been legitimate. I think that is part of shutting down the conversation.

It's like saying that a man and not a women getting a promotion has nothing to do with sexism and everything to do with the specific merits of the woman. It may sometimes be the case, but it's not a level playing field. Both sexism and merit are playing a part.

one simple example of the racism issue to me ( as white) was the fact that one American police force analysed their arrests for driving offences. During the day the people arrested were predominantly coloured. During the night, when they admitted seeing the colour of the driver was harder, they arrested far fewer black men. Until then they thought they were being objective.

I think it needs to be talked about more because it's easy to forget when it doesn't impact you, so thanks OP

I guess I assmed Buster is white because of his posts, he might not be.

@Buster72 it's not always illegal. Especially if you are in a certain area where there are high crime rates. I looked in to it when it happened

He must have been provided grounds at the time and the option to collect written record within 3 months if not taken at the scene. Perhaps if you or your brother knew the grounds it may dispel your fears

You’re naive if you believe that police and security actually follow any sort of regulations when it comes to these sort of things. And also, why should BAME people have to learn all these regulations to protect ourselves? Guarantee you most white people dont need to think of these things every time they leave their house.

OP there will always be people excusing away these situations, I'm not surprised to see a couple on this thread already after a handful of posts.

Did her father match the description because the description was 6 foot 2 and black...whatvother features were taken into account? WAs a coloured officiating involved in the process...because white people are known to be very poor at differentiating coloured faces

Yanbu at all.

I’ll lecture people till the cows come home on the way women are oppressed because I’ve seen and experienced it first hand. Every fucking time on here there’s some MRA or twenty telling me that actually women aren’t oppressed and there’s no need for feminism. But I’ve seen it first hand and I’ve experienced it. They’re men, they have absolutely no fucking idea what it’s like to be a woman.

I’m white, and so I have no real idea what it’s like not to be. But if someone tells me they experience racism I listen, because they know far more about it than I do, see things that probably pass me by and experience things I can’t. So they know far more than me about this, and I would be wise to listen and learn.

So no, YANBU at all. It sucks.

@PaulMaPantzoff I'm at risk of drip feeding here. He didn't give his details. He refused to. They had already established that he wasn't who they were looking for. They still continued to press for his details. Again, he refused. They didn't believe him when he told them he was out for a run and patronised him by saying 'what are you really doing?' (He was in running gear). Apologies, there was a lot of stuff I should've added to the original post but didn't. These were just recent examples I've used and combined with the many more I can think of it doesn't entirely add up.

It is disgusting, making assumptions based on the colour of his skin.

I find it frustrating that people can realistically get so worked up over a white man being called a "cracker" and will come out with the whole "racism works both ways" argument (which I've heard a lot) , seemingly with no understanding that, yes, racism can work both ways but one group of people are from a minority with a history of oppression and one group aren't. It is different, and I think it's being wilfully ignorant to suggest otherwise.

I always hear people saying that there's less racism here than in the states. There isn't, it just gets brushed under the carpet, ignored. Shying away from talking about it just makes everything worse.

People in a position of privilege, whether in terms of race, sex, whatever, aren't going to be aware of the incidents in the same way as the oppressed class as they're not subjected to them.

And because much of the time, those people aren't racist/sexist/etc themselves and can't imagine that anyone else would be, they often inadvertently minimise a potentially racist incident on the basis that 'there must be some rational explanation'.

Racism is rife in the UK, and I agree that lots of people don't want to acknowledge that. They don't have lived experience of being on the receiving end of racism and would rather avoid the topic than find out what black people in the UK and elsewhere are experiencing, which I think leads to denial of racism.

I find so many people shy away from it and I'm left with no discussion

Because it's uncomfortable for them. They feel embarrassed by it and unless it affects them ... it isn't as bug an issue.

I speak as a black woman and know exactly what you mean.

Ive discussed it with some of my white colleagues. One thing I was pissed off about recently...was one saying people were too sensitive about the comment by Alan Sugar ...even said she knows what he means...by the time I finished explaining why it was offensive she was as red as a tomato.

She just doesn't get it. Same thing when she tried to say the monet our company spent on black history month was a waste.... Until I told her it was a small price to pay for the UKs involvement in the slave trade.

I think the term 'playing the race card' was devised to make people feel uncomfortable about having these discussions.

''my whole office was in total uproar about a crime stoppers report regarding a white male that was called a 'cracker' by two black men''

That would have made me intensely uncomfortable, it sounds like people who think they have found a 'gotcha' to prove it 'works both ways' or something.

@CalliopeSparkles I get exactly what you say. My husband is black and when we were younger he used to get stopped in his car by the police 3-4 times a week. Most people would say, if you've not got anything to hide you shouldn't be worried. But it was so embarrassing and demoralising, plus it would make him late to work.

My mixed race daughter now early twenties, regularly gets told by club promoters she is welcome but not her blacker friends. I was so angry on her behalf - but she told me to "calm down". It happens all the time.

My gorgeous son is so kind, humble and loving but because he's mixed race I really worry what his teens will be like.

FFS. This is 2018. Sometimes I just want to weep.

Random stop and search is illegal. Unless a section 60 is in place. Which would indicate an area of high violence.....in which case an overt police presence is surely welcome...

I wonder how all of those posters saying it might not have been race related, its fair game if there was suspicion etc would react if when trying to explain to a group of men all the instances of sexism would react if they were all minimised and explained away. Women arent in management because they dont want to, they prioritise their families, theyre too emotional. That might be true for some women, but its certainly not true of every woman, and in the same vein, some of those racist incidents might be explained by circumstance, but they cannot all be explained away. This is white priveledge.