to find it hard to talk about race/racism as a black woman without feeling like I'm 'playing the race card'

[CalliopeSparkles]

Sorry if this isn't the most eloquently put post. I read some of the threads on here where people seem to know so much about their subject, it's a little intimidating at times (not a bad thing) so will do my best to get my point across!

I am a mixed race woman. Black and Caucasian. Recently saw a clip of George the Poet during a search:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BkmV6viAfz3/?utmsource=iggsharesheet&igshid=1ilippwo0ufby

Nothing we haven't seen before!

My dad is a runner and went out running one evening. He was pulled over by the police who asked to search him and his bag, saying he looked like a known criminal (he's a professional with a clean record, never broken a law in his life - other than simple ones like breaking the speed limit or not wearing a seatbelt). My brother was strip searched in a shopping mall once after someone thought he was shop lifting (he wasn't), my other brother lives in London, works for the BBC, clean record, and has been stopped and searched 4 times in 2 years, all for no reason (that he could tell anyway). These are all hurtful for me to hear and I know there is something wrong with this. If I've ever entered in to a discussion about it however it often turns in to people becoming defensive, trying to defend why the searches might have been done, and a refusal to see an issue. I believe that most people in this world are good, and kind, and are in no way bigoted or racist, however why is it so hard for some people to simply admit that racism does exist? It's almost like it's taken as a personal insult at times, even though I am as explanatory and unbiased as can be in my discussion.

The last straw for me was the other day when my whole office was in total uproar about a crime stoppers report regarding a white male that was called a 'cracker' by two black men. This is awful racist behaviour, however the anger is never there when it's the every day 'normal' racism we hear about towards ethnic minorities.

AIBU to think that there IS a problem and to be frustrated when trying to discuss it with those who won't engage unless it's their own race that's affected?

@03051781boo sounds like they're putting you through hell and I'm sorry for that. Racism IS racism, but your one experience of a clearly bigoted family is very different to someone else's experience of growing up surrounded by covert racism within society for the whole of their teen and adult life. By continuing to talk about your one experience, albeit horrific, you're missing the point of the thread entirely.

I was heading off to bed last night so only left a link to the amnesty international investigation that found the police matrix to be not fit for purpose. (bbc news one) I thought it might be a bit of external validation during all the gaslighting on this thread.

time and time again I've seen inquiries finding English institutions are racist and it must be very frightening for people like your DAd and brother.

especially when added to the back drop of constant drip drip 'little stuff' some of it intentional and some of it from unconscious bias or just not knowing.

How rude. Would you make the same difference between someone who was raped once and someone who was raped repeatedly?

Racism IS racism.

The point of the thread was that the op felt that as a black woman she couldn’t talk about racism without being made to feel like she was playing the race card.

The point I was making was that as a white woman you can’t talk about racism without being told you don’t know what you’re talking about then someone will come along and call you a racist.

These threads always go the same way.

Someone started one a while back saying that all the women on mn were racist because they didn’t like Meghan markle and Alexandra Burke but no matter what anyone said, the ONLY reason for that dislike was because of their skin colour, because you couldn’t possibly not like a black person for any other reason.

@03051781boo rubbish! Of course white people can talk about racism without being called racist! Many people have done so pretty eloquently on this thread I believe. My mother does it all the time.

No you can't compare those two scenarios but why are we comparing rape to racism? If someone is sexually assaulted a number of times then this would be for entirely different reasons as to why someone would experience racism all their lives. It's a false dichotomy to compare the two and makes no sense whatsoever.

What has your point about MM and A Burke got to do with anything? Again, completely different issue to the one on this thread.

FFS, everyone knows that stop and search grounds are easily fabricated

Are they? More to the point why would they? The police (like everyone else in the world) can be lazy when it comes to doing there jobs. Do you really think that the level of racism is that high that they're prepared to create a lot more work for themselves, with no result, just to piss off the black community? Come on.

As it is most officers now won't bother with stop search at all. It's political and it's the easiest way to fuck your career with groundless complaints. I don't live in the place I work (I live as far away as is permissible) it's not my kids who are going to get stabbed or robbed. I'm not stop searching anyone.

@FuckLush I have no idea about the fabrication of stop and search. I am not a police officer. My brother lives in a fairly high crime area and walks between bus stops late at night. He and his friend who happens to be white get off at the same stop and walk in opposite directions. My brother has been stopped on 4 occasions however he friend has never been stopped. Could be a huge coincidence however on many occasions I don't believe it is. In high crime and certain areas (especially in London) it is legal to stop someone randomly. It does happen because it has happened to my brothers, my dad and many of their friends. Nothing needs to be fabricated.

Are they? More to the point why would they?

Is that a serious question?

I don’t know the stats on stop and search but I do know my black friends with teenage boys are afraid for their sons everytime they go out. They are a target for both gang violence and police victimisation. These are good boys too they work hard at school and are lovely kids yet they still get hassled just for being young black men.

CalliopeSparkles - for your sanity

stats on stop and search

www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and-the-law/policing/stop-and-search/latest

In high crime and certain areas (especially in London) it is legal to stop someone randomly

S60's are only in place for a maximum of 48hrs. It's been the best part of 10 years since rolling S60's were stopped.

(Even though the law says an officer with the rank of Insp can authorise one for 24 hrs and a Supt can extend it for another 24 in reality it's only an officer with a rank of ACC or above. At those ranks your a politician rather than an officer and they shit themselves about making those sort of decisions and try to avoid it at all costs)

Anywhere outside of London stop and search for "no reason" simply doesn't exist.

@FuckLush yes unfortunately some police officers are that screwed up.

The only white people who acknowledge it in every day life tend to have BAME partners and/or children/step-children they live with.

Depending where you are certain police forces will leave you alone. So while a lot of my younger BAME family and friends have been hassled by the MET or GMP, older BAME family and friends members tend to be hassled by Thames Valley, Hampshire and Cambridgeshire police forces.

Oh - none of my BAME family members or friends have been stabbed and robbed but some of my white male friends have been robbed, but I guess why you can't work out why that is a racist statement.

@FuckLush yes unfortunately some police officers are that screwed up

Yep, fuck all else to do but hassle innocent minorities.

It's interesting because old, white daily mail readers claim the police do nothing but hassle motorists and arrest them for speeding.

I wonder how the prisons got full when all the police are doing is fitting up minorities and motorists. Weird.

I work in a city of 300000 people. There were 5 of us on last night, now knowing my colleague's were busy stop searching minorities for no reason at least explains why I was sent single crewed to a violent domestic.

@FuckLush I think we need to try and avoid getting in to an argument regarding this as it will only go one way. I am not a police officer, however work very closely with the police and sit in offices with police officers. The vast majority of police officers I know and work with are incredible in the face of diversity and work exceptionally hard. The stop and search example was just one that I used, however it in no way meant that all police officers were racist or stopped and searched black people for no reason. It's hard to discuss this without seeming anti-police, however that really isn't the case here. There HAS been an issue with stop and search and my brother has sadly been on the receiving end of that. For whatever reason. I can't ever know for sure why that is. The main point of my thread was not about the way my family had been treated, but more the fact that it is often extremely difficult to talk about and I'm often shut down for doing so.

I have the utmost respect for our police and wouldn't want to be a police officer in London. All good things have imperfections, and that goes for the police too. A handful of bad eggs amongst an ocean of good people.

My brother has dark skin and when he was younger was frequently stopped and searched by police.

Once he was dragged across the street by them, nearly came out of his shoes. When he protested they told him not to act up or they'd arrest him. When he asked what he'd done, they told him he had ‘walked into Sainsburys suspiciously.’

Another time he was walking home late from his bar job on a cold winter night so had his hoody up for warmth. They stopped their car and asked where he was going. They told him it was suspicious to be walking around late at night in a hoody…

All of his dark skinned friends had similar stories.

His fair skinned friends? Never been stopped.

We grew up in South East London and along with cases like how Stephen Lawrence’s case was treated it really impacted on my faith in the Met. I know it’s just a few bad apples, but this stuff does stick with you.

Cheekyandfreaky

Yanbu Op, hopefully most will agree. I am sure someone won’t.

How very goads your last sentence is. Did you really have to?

*goady

@fucklush.

I'm afraid my (considerable) experience of working with police officers is that they are often bullies who like to pick on people. They are lazy, their paperwork is shit. And they are racist. There are so many official reports confirming this that I just don't have to justify my observations.

The officers rely on the fact that the vast majority of people don't complain so it isn't actually about creating more work for themselves. Anyway, they lie abour the accounts they provide - it's a power thing for them. They like to consider themselves invincible. For reasons which are totally obvious from this thread, it's soul destroying and ultimately pointless to bother complaining which is why the vast majority of people don't.

If you've ever been in a car driven by a black person you'll have an idea of the constant stream of repulsive abuse they have to experience. Does anyone ask those people why they would want to do it?

Please stop undermining black people's experiences. Within the context of this threat it is racist.

And @03051781boo this thread is not about you. What you are describing is a discrete pattern limited to a few individuals. What dark skinned people experience is whole life times characterised all the time by the attitude you've experienced just once. At work, when shopping, when driving, at school. It's not equivalent, not even slightly. Think about that and check the fuck out of your privilege please.

CalliopeSparkles

I agree there needs to be a conversation, unfortunately the people who decide they should hold them seem to be the least suitable people for the job! Senior police officers meeting with self appointed "community leaders" are not who should be having these conversations. When I joined I was told by an old hand "policing is like the England managers job. Even with no experience, everyone thinks they know how to do your job and how to do it better"

Unfortunately policing is the most political of all public services. Whilst the respective leaders are navel gazing and finger pointing, young black men are dying in their fucking dozens. There's not a single plan in place to stop it and there's people with vested interests in letting it continue.

I don't even work in London and I've watched a young black boy bleed out on the pavement and die whilst we're trying to save him, at the same time taking a load of verbal from the crowd of being racist, filming on their phones.

There needs to be a conversation around police and racism. Black mothers need to be centred in these conversations first and foremost. They need to speak with operational police officers, not police "politicians" who couldn't find their way out of the nick let alone have an original or dynamic idea. This could change but it's going to take a lot of work on both sides

I'm afraid my (considerable) experience of working with police officers is that they are often bullies who like to pick on people. They are lazy, their paperwork is shit. And they are racist. There are so many official reports confirming this that I just don't have to justify my observations

Yep sure. There are 121,929 officers in England and Wales. What % of them have you worked with and in what role?

What "official report" is there which states they're racist, lazy bullies who complete shit paperwork? As there are "So many" of these reports I'm sure you'll have absolutely no problem in linking one for us....

And there’s my point proven. White people cant talk about their experience of racism without being told to ‘check their privilege’ (the new ‘you’re racist')

Just because it isnt systematic (10 years of abuse just because of my skin colour) then my experience doesn’t count. Yes it’s a different kind, I’m not disputing that at all, just the fact that I’m shut down and told I can’t comment cos I haven’t had it as bad. Similar to what the op is saying she feels when trying to put her experiences across.

@03051781boo check your privilege in this case means exactly what @EyeSaidTheFly said in their post. It doesn't mean you are racist.

One example of a group of people being bigoted to you is not like the day-to-day racism BAME people get from society including the police, the health care professionals, employers, random people on the street, etc. If you have children with your partner you as they get older you will get to understand this.

@FuckLush absolutely. I don't agree that most police officers are lazy/racist etc. The police force is HUGE so of course there are going to be a large number of racist people hidden in between the cracks. Even if a minority of the Met were racist this would still be a large enough number to result in skewed figures re stop and search.

In regards to the paperwork issue, I've seen the paperwork police officers do. It's sometimes rushed and a bit botched. We've had extensive discussion about this in our office as we have all (including me) been pulled up on out paperwork! We just don't have the time. Blimey have people seen the state of London recently? Paperwork comes last. I've tried writing accounts of things I've seen earlier in the day after having done a million other tasks in the interim. Paperwork isn't my strong point, and I have a PhD. Definitely not lazy!

"There needs to be a conversation around police and racism. Black mothers need to be centred in these conversations first and foremost. They need to speak with operational police officers, not police "politicians" who couldn't find their way out of the nick let alone have an original or dynamic idea. This could change but it's going to take a lot of work on both sides" - so well put. I don't want this thread to turn in to a police bashing thread because it is not what it was intended to be. I'll leave it at that, thank you for your service and hope that you keep on keeping on. Sounds like you and your colleagues have a really tough job and I can only thank you for doing it to the best of your ability.

InaccessibleB

@03051781boo sounds like they're putting you through hell and I'm sorry for that. Racism IS racism, but your one experience of a clearly bigoted family is very different to someone else's experience of growing up surrounded by covert racism within society for the whole of their teen and adult life. By continuing to talk about your one experience, albeit horrific, you're missing the point of the thread entirely.
This

03051781boo
I’m just pointing out that racism is different to prejudice.
OP starts a post about difficultly in having conversations with white colleagues (she never specified women) and people then give tenuous examples of one bad experience with person of colour, which IF true are horrible but it’s not a routine part of your life.
I know some members of my DH’s extended family would have preferred for him to Marry a Ghanaian but it’s not racism, they are small minded and prejudiced though.
As for your brother being charged with a hate crime, really?
You’ve definitely over egged the pudding